The 'Game Manager'.
- Thread starter RWBTide
- Start date
I think Namath had the most talent but AJ may be the smarter QB. Namath threw a lot of pics in the pros and was much looser with the ball. But Namath did have a rifle for an arm..
Plus in Macarron era I think the film study and training was superior.
Plus in Macarron era I think the film study and training was superior.
I understand what you are saying but AJ had rings and very good passing stats/production. You could probably use your argument using Jay Barker in '92 when Jay handed off a lot and completed some timely passes but did not have great passing stats.
I agree - I don't think that Alabama wins in 2011 or 2012 with a Barker or GMac type QB.
IMO it's hard to discuss best of all time with QBs because the game has changed and evolved so much.
How do you really compare Namath with McCarrron? They basically weren't playing the same game in terms of the offenses they ran, the level of talent around them, the defenses they went against, the pressures and expectations, etc. Football changes decade by decade, let alone over 50 years. It's impossible to know what Namath would have looked like on the 2012 Tide with modern film study, strength and conditioning, TV every week etc. and vice versa.
Being the best of your day is all that matters.
How do you really compare Namath with McCarrron? They basically weren't playing the same game in terms of the offenses they ran, the level of talent around them, the defenses they went against, the pressures and expectations, etc. Football changes decade by decade, let alone over 50 years. It's impossible to know what Namath would have looked like on the 2012 Tide with modern film study, strength and conditioning, TV every week etc. and vice versa.
Being the best of your day is all that matters.
The argument I'm making is that I just don't think the "rings on his finger" is a good comparison unless you get to qbs like Brady vs Manning in which they were in the same era and you really needed something to break a tie. Even then facts are subjective. But I think you can make a good argument for AJ by his stats
Barker was in a system that WAS dominated by the run, and AJ was in a system that LEANED towards the run. CGS's style was effective until it ran into Spurrier, but out of the 4 meetings with them from 92-96 in Atlanta, 94 should have been the game we should have boat raced them. Homer Smith's offense that year was unstoppable when he was allowed to run it without being overruled, and Jay Barker was one of the best, if not the best qbs in the country. If he was given 1 more game and 110 more passes we might really be talking about him as the GOAT because he would possibly have 2 undefeated seasons as a starter,possibly 2 NCs, and a 20+ win streak as a starter. That's using the team aspect with him being the qb. His stats also reflect a run dominated offense, but in 94 he had more passing yards than Danny wurrfell with just 10 more attempts. Just imagine if they let him loose like they did in the UGA game.
Point is Barker was more than an average qb like most seem to remember him as, and it was more because of the style of offense that Alabama ran during his time that makes it feel that way.
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I may be wrong but I his stats represent the era in which he played. Rules have changed since favoring the passing game.
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Just my opinion, but it amazes me that Sloan and Rutledge don't get more consideration when talking about the best Bama QBs.
Sloan gets overlooked because of Namath; but he was the primary starter for the 64 and 65 NC teams. He also played DB for the Tide.
Rutledge gets tagged because of the offense they ran; but he was a pretty good passer as well.
Sloan gets overlooked because of Namath; but he was the primary starter for the 64 and 65 NC teams. He also played DB for the Tide.
Rutledge gets tagged because of the offense they ran; but he was a pretty good passer as well.
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This is like comparing 'Apples to Orange's'...
Unless the QB's are running the same system it's impossible to say which is the better...!
Same thing with comparing each team's yearly offense, impossible to achieve...
How could one compare a wishbone offense to a pro-style offense.
Or for that matter a zone-read with RPO option's to a triple option offense!
Although Defense's are a little easier to compare it's still not absolute..
I liked Watt's for what he was able to do, but he didn't have the same horse's in front of him that AJ had...
Another aspect is coaching, Brodie went through some upheaval during his time at Bama...
It does make a difference!
Unless the QB's are running the same system it's impossible to say which is the better...!
Same thing with comparing each team's yearly offense, impossible to achieve...
How could one compare a wishbone offense to a pro-style offense.
Or for that matter a zone-read with RPO option's to a triple option offense!
Although Defense's are a little easier to compare it's still not absolute..
I liked Watt's for what he was able to do, but he didn't have the same horse's in front of him that AJ had...
Another aspect is coaching, Brodie went through some upheaval during his time at Bama...
It does make a difference!
Don't forget about Bart, he played QB, Safety and was the Punter in his Sophomore year, he got tossed because of 'EARS'...
And the rest is 'History'...
First, let's deal with the game manager assessment.
I think it is fair to say that until the loss to LSU in 2011, McCarron was IN TRUTH more of a game manager than a leading QB. Based on my reading of "The Storm and the Tide," I don't know if AJ would disagree with my assessment. He blamed himself for the loss - because he was too afraid of making a mistake rather than just playing quarterback. Maybe it would be fair to say he was not considered a game manager but he FUNCTIONED as one until that game was over. (I do know he was considered an up and coming QB star when McElroy was the starter).
I don't think any assessment of best-ever at Alabama can really be solved. The game has evolved dramatically - prior to Matt Leinart at USC the game was PRIMARILY what John Madden called 'a running back game.' Yes, you can show me QBs that threw the ball all over the yard but most of those were system quarterbacks. And there's another little problem at Alabama when we bring up the Namath and Stabler era that was not their fault but is still a fundamental reality of the world then: it was a lily white game in the South. When we look at players with monster yards and stats from that time frame, you have to remember that the talent on the field was much lesser than it should have been. (RWB - I can't assume you know what I'm talking about so......back in the 1960s, blacks were mostly not permitted to do, well, anything, including play college football or even attend the same school as white kids. The SEC, in particular, where Alabama played virtually all of its games had NO black players at the time we're talking about. If I'm not mistaken, the first black player Alabama ever played AGAINST was a guy on Penn State in the Liberty Bowl of IIRC 1959).
More later, I'm at work.
I think it is fair to say that until the loss to LSU in 2011, McCarron was IN TRUTH more of a game manager than a leading QB. Based on my reading of "The Storm and the Tide," I don't know if AJ would disagree with my assessment. He blamed himself for the loss - because he was too afraid of making a mistake rather than just playing quarterback. Maybe it would be fair to say he was not considered a game manager but he FUNCTIONED as one until that game was over. (I do know he was considered an up and coming QB star when McElroy was the starter).
I don't think any assessment of best-ever at Alabama can really be solved. The game has evolved dramatically - prior to Matt Leinart at USC the game was PRIMARILY what John Madden called 'a running back game.' Yes, you can show me QBs that threw the ball all over the yard but most of those were system quarterbacks. And there's another little problem at Alabama when we bring up the Namath and Stabler era that was not their fault but is still a fundamental reality of the world then: it was a lily white game in the South. When we look at players with monster yards and stats from that time frame, you have to remember that the talent on the field was much lesser than it should have been. (RWB - I can't assume you know what I'm talking about so......back in the 1960s, blacks were mostly not permitted to do, well, anything, including play college football or even attend the same school as white kids. The SEC, in particular, where Alabama played virtually all of its games had NO black players at the time we're talking about. If I'm not mistaken, the first black player Alabama ever played AGAINST was a guy on Penn State in the Liberty Bowl of IIRC 1959).
More later, I'm at work.
Barker had more yards passing than Danny Wuerffel in 1994 because Weerffel split his time with Terry Dean. Wuerffel threw for 1,754 yeards and Dean had another 1,492. Jay Barker had 1,996 yards for the year.
Best QB (skill set)
1. A. Joe Willie
B. Snake
2. Bart Starr
3. Scott Hunter
4. Richard Todd
5. A.J.
Accomplishments
1. A.J.
2. Jay Barker
3. Greg McElroy
4. Blake Sims
5. Steadman Shealy
1. A. Joe Willie
B. Snake
2. Bart Starr
3. Scott Hunter
4. Richard Todd
5. A.J.
Accomplishments
1. A.J.
2. Jay Barker
3. Greg McElroy
4. Blake Sims
5. Steadman Shealy
???????
Point Totals In 1994 by Alabama
UTC 42 (doesn't even count in the real world)
Vandy 17
Arkansas 13
Tulane 20
UGA 29
USM 14 (and 7 of those points came from a Matt Parker fumble return for a TD, so the offense only got 7)
Tenn 17
Ole Miss 21
LSU 35 (and TWO of those TDs were blocked punts, so the offense only accounted for 21....Barker was 6 for 11 for 130 yards)
MSU 29 (granted, Barker had a GREAT day in this one, throwing for over 300 yards)
Auburn 21 (Barker threw an interception in the end zone that nearly cost us the game late)
Florida 23
Ohio State 24
So Barker threw for 1,996 yards in 13 games but 721 of those yards came against two opponents (UGA and MSU). So that means in 11 other games, Barker threw for 1,275 yards, an average of 115.9 yards per game.
I like Barker, but let's just say I never felt comfortable when he dropped back to let fly. I mean, consider the Arkansas game that year. Yeah, Barker gets credit for a 73-yard touchdown pass to Sherman Williams. But Barker threw the ball maybe 20 yards at most and Sherman Williams ran the rest of it with one tackler to miss. We barely beat a 4-7 team that Memphis beat.
Barker got a lot of ink because he was a game manager and we won a LOT of games. I won't go so far as to say "we won DESPITE Barker," but I think it's difficult to name many games we won because of him, either.
Did Stallings spend the entire year telling Homer Smith not to run high-powered stuff? Because in only three games all year did we exceed 24 points and the first one I can't really even count.
Do you think we win a duel with zier had we kept running the same offense?
In the 90's only Spurier, and to a degree Bowden and fulmer ever really challenged our run dominant offense.
I personally think AJ is the best. Not just for us but in all of college....ever. I look at it purely based on what was accomplished in the collegiate career. He broke virtually all of the schools passing records. He was just blink away from leading the team to 3 straight NC's in the current competitive landscape. I also think IF the team would have beaten the barn and then Mizz in '13 they might just have awarded him the Heisman over crablegs.....he finished 2nd as it was.
The funny thing to me is the consensus while he was currently playing was that he WAS indeed the best. But a LOT of people got salty about some of his comments after he left. Now they retroactively punish his career for it still.
Oh and he may have been a 'Game Manager' for most of 2011 but he was unleashed against LSU in the 2011/2012 Title game.....and continued to be a Playmaker the next two seasons. I'm still impressed by how much of a gunslinger playmaker he was yet did a great job of not throwing many INT's.
The funny thing to me is the consensus while he was currently playing was that he WAS indeed the best. But a LOT of people got salty about some of his comments after he left. Now they retroactively punish his career for it still.
Oh and he may have been a 'Game Manager' for most of 2011 but he was unleashed against LSU in the 2011/2012 Title game.....and continued to be a Playmaker the next two seasons. I'm still impressed by how much of a gunslinger playmaker he was yet did a great job of not throwing many INT's.
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