Should we have an IQ test for right to vote?

I find it interesting that an electorate that is woefully lacking on knowledge of all concepts of government is the product of government schools.

Bodhisattva said:

I find it interesting that an electorate that is woefully lacking on knowledge of all concepts of government is the product of government schools.

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So are you generalizing that everyone that went to public schools have a low IQ? And that somehow those that went to Private schools are the "informed" electorate?

Ldlane said:

So are you generalizing that everyone that went to public schools have a low IQ? And that somehow those that went to Private schools are the "informed" electorate?

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Yes, I am generalizing. I didn't realize that was a crime. I'm not going to go through 300 million + case studies.

Have you noticed that the bulk of the citizenry is forced to attend mediocre (at best) public schools? And since public schools tend to teach little about government and even less about economics ........ just connecting the dots here.

Bodhisattva said:

Yes, I am generalizing. I didn't realize that was a crime. I'm not going to go through 300 million + case studies.

Have you noticed that the bulk of the citizenry is forced to attend mediocre (at best) public schools? And since public schools tend to teach little about government and even less about economics ........ just connecting the dots here.

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So you have the data? I didn't realize that public shcool teach little about government or economics especially since every state basicall forces you too. I know that when I taught Social Studies I taught both.

Ldlane said:

So you have the data? I didn't realize that public shcool teach little about government or economics especially since every state basicall forces you too. I know that when I taught Social Studies I taught both.

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You don't really think the general public is well-versed in government or economics, do you Lance? Or math or literature or science?

Would it be hard to find millions of high school graduates who have a fragile command of the English language?

I've met very few people who know anything about government or economics, yet they've taken social studies in school. Just because it's on the curriculum doesn't mean that the knowledge is being sincerely taught or absorbed. You know that.

Public schools are a joke as a general rule. The data on that is readily available.

Bodhisattva said:

You don't really think the general public is well-versed in government or economics, do you Lance? Or math or literature or science?

Would it be hard to find millions of high school graduates who have a fragile command of the English language? I've met very few people who know anything about government or economic, yet they've take social studies in school. Just because it's own the curriculum doesn't mean that the knowledge is being absorbed. You know that.

Public schools are a joke as a general rule. The data on that is readily available.

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I think that most schools. private and public are a "joke". But from poor curriculum and lack of development for teachers. We still have a school system that is stuck in an "industrial model" and in some places "agrarian". However, I've highlighted the key statement above. So it is up to educators to make sure that they can teach to where they have students stick that in their long term memory.

Ldlane said:

I think that most schools. private and public are a "joke". But from poor curriculum and lack of development for teachers. We still have a school system that is stuck in an "industrial model" and in some places "agrarian". However, I've highlighted the key statement above. So it is up to educators to make sure that they can teach to where they have students stick that in their long term memory.

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Public schools tend to be lame because there is usually a lack of incentive to be otherwise. Governments and unions do not serve the customer (students), they serve themselves. Property owners have to fund public schools; schools don't have to compete for patronage like the private sector does. Public schools coddle poorly performing students, teachers and administrators.

Private schools are generally very good. (After paying for public schools, why would anyone pay extra to go a bad private school?) They are many in the DC area that are pipelines to the elite universities. And they have to complete with each other for students (and money). Competition (among students, teachers, administrators, etc.) is a wonderful thing.

Bodhisattva said:

Public schools tend to be lame because there is usually a lack of incentive to be otherwise. Governments and unions do not serve the customer (students), they serve themselves. Property owners have to fund public schools; schools don't have to compete for patronage like the private sector does. Public schools coddle poorly performing students, teachers and administrators.

Private schools are generally very good. (After paying for public schools, why would anyone pay extra to go a bad private school?) They are many in the DC area that are pipelines to the elite universities. And they have to complete with each other for students (and money). Competition (among students, teachers, administrators, etc.) is a wonderful thing.

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Well, we are going to have to disagree because I see many private school represented when I go to School Improvement conferences and they are having some of the same problems. Those that aren't are probably schools that can discriminate on which students they can accept be it grades or discipline. I remember when I lived in Selma that "Private" schools were "White" only schools such as Morgan Academy and Meadowview Christian.

Ldlane said:

Well, we are going to have to disagree because I see many private school represented when I go to School Improvement conferences and they are having some of the same problems. Those that aren't are probably schools that can discriminate on which students they can accept be it grades or discipline. I remember when I lived in Selma that "Private" schools were "White" only schools such as Morgan Academy and Meadowview Christian.

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Ok, we can agree to disagree.

But, when my daughter becomes school-age I can either send her to the public school that is more than likely mediocre. Or, I can shop around and send her to one of a dozen private schools. If there is a private school that is no better than the public school academically, then it won't get me business. Indeed, it would be foolish for anyone else to be double-paying for no better quality. So, either the school exists because it in fact is better quality, or it offers some other benefit to the critical mass of consumers.

And I want private schools to discriminate based on merit. I want my daughter in class worth other intelligent, disciplined kids. That's the primary point of paying for a good private school on top of the mediocre public school that I have to pay for.

Bodhisattva said:

Theoretically, the IQ level would be arbitrarily set by government bureaucrats, just like every government policy is arbitrarily set by government bureaucrats.

If you don't like the former, do you like the latter?

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i dont agree with the premise of the latter.

i would have to hazard a guess that everyone calling for an IQ test/base IQ level for voting rights is under the assumption that they would fall into the group allowed to vote

Bodhisattva said:

The data on that are readily available.

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fixed that for you but i do have to disclose that i didn't learn this until my third year in a public university. my public high school left me hanging on that one.

BamaToTheEnd said:

I would be against this idea for the simple fact of I think it takes away from a person's rights a bit.

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The Republic, since its inception, has asked some of its citizens to die for it.
Asking the uninformed citizen not to vote seems a small concession compared to that.

Since death normally ends all lifetime activities, including voting,* death would be an all-inclusive penalty, and thus more severe sacrifice. Yet the Republic has asked some of its citizens to make that sacrifice.

I am not one of those who is in favor of more voting; the Republic needs better voting.

* I realize that in some jurisdictions, Democrats have successfully gotten the dead to vote, but this is generally not the case.

Ldlane said:

Well, we are going to have to disagree because I see many private school represented when I go to School Improvement conferences and they are having some of the same problems. Those that aren't are probably schools that can discriminate on which students they can accept be it grades or discipline. I remember when I lived in Selma that "Private" schools were "White" only schools such as Morgan Academy and Meadowview Christian.

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Those still exist, and I wouldn't call the ones I've seen through my work the shining beacons of academic greatness either.

92tide said:

i dont agree with the premise of the latter.

i would have to hazard a guess that everyone calling for an IQ test/base IQ level for voting rights is under the assumption that they would fall into the group allowed to vote

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Whenever I fail to meet an objective standard, I face a choice. I can either (a) tell myself that I have failed to meet the standard and I need to improve next time to meet it, or (b) I can tell myself that the standard biased against me, or otherwise flawed.
The former choice is the path to eventual success.
The latter is the shortcut to excuse-making, resentment and ultimate failure.

So to answer your question, no, I did not assume I would make the cut. But I can promise you two things. (a) If I did not make the cut, you'd see me with my nose in the appropriate books, and (b) regardless of the standard used (tests of literacy, IQ, civics, economics, candidates' positions), the overall quality of voting would be improved and the Republic would benefit (which is the goal).

It would be quite amusing to see a bill proposed requiring IQ tests for voters and the subsequent fallout of politicians screaming to defend their idiot supporters' rights to vote untested.

I don't understand the need for a test. I've been reading and hearing for the past 50 years how much smarter our children are. Also political parties and school administrators have been constantly improving the educational system for that same 50 years. Shouldn't some of those smart youngsters be voting by now. And now you are telling me we don't have citizens smart enough to vote. I'm aghast.
Why is it that European Countries don't seem to have a big problem with uneducated voters?
Is it possible that the much ballyhooed multiculturalism has it's draw back?

In all seriousness I strongly favor an intelligence test to vote and to run for office.

Tidewater said:

I would wager that any kind of intelligence/education standard would hurt Democrats more than Republicans.

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I didn't see this addressed, so I figured I'd go ahead and dispel this myth. The most recent polls just show the nation's recent lean towards Obama. But look back to when the two were posting similar overall numbers and you'll see that the "HS or less" category was basically within the margin of error. The telling number is the distribution of postgrads, which have hugely favored Obama since day one.

The data is even more striking when you only look at Caucasian voters. There is an inverse correlation between support for McCain and level of education. On the whole, the lesser educated individuals show greater support the Republican ticket while the Democrats hold greater support among those with a higher education.

CrimsonCT said:

The data is even more striking when you only look at Caucasian voters. There is an inverse correlation between support for McCain and level of education. On the whole, the lesser educated individuals show greater support the Republican ticket while the Democrats hold greater support among those with a higher education.

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So, are you saying that because someone has a post graduate degree that they are smarter than those who got their degree and went to work instead of living off of student loans?
Are you aware that a lage majority of self made millionaires do not have a college degree?
Also, a study was done comparing John Stewart, Colbert and Rush Limbaugh listeners. The study found that the people who watched Colbert and Stewart had a higher education level than Rush Limbaugh's but that the listeners of Limbaugh's scored higher on a test that they were given which was on the Constitution and government.

Mamacalled said:

So, are you saying that because someone has a post graduate degree that they are smarter than those who got their degree and went to work instead of living off of student loans?

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On average, yes--people who have masters or doctorate degrees are generally smarter than those who don't.

Are you aware that a lage majority of self made millionaires do not have a college degree?
Also, a study was done comparing John Stewart, Colbert and Rush Limbaugh listeners. The study found that the people who watched Colbert and Stewart had a higher education level than Rush Limbaugh's but that the listeners of Limbaugh's scored higher on a test that they were given which was on the Constitution and government.

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A horrible attempt at deflection, considering the generational differences in postgraduate education. Also, your uncited study is hardly a scientific sampling of different educational levels, and is thus irrelevant.