News Article: SIAP - Erica Kinsman Goes Public (Jameis Winston's Alleged Victim)

[B1GTide]

It's not irrelevant if you're the one sitting in prison for 20 years on a false charge.

For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.

 

[B1GTide]

Aside from this specific case I get what you're saying and yes it happens. Kids (college kids in this case) get into situations where they make decisions they soon regret. I know it is very unpopular to say but a lot of girls at that age do things with their bodies they eventually regret. Some regret it immediately some it takes longer. Some react with internal regret others react with lashing out at the other party they made the bad decision with. Some even going as for as accusations of rape. Please note I'm not saying this is what happened in the Winston case. I'm talking in general.

Being a former college athlete I saw first hand girls throw themselves at players (and I went to a community college so I can only imagine what its like at D1 level). Whether it be football, baseball or basketball players. I can tell of stories where girls willfully gave themselves to some dude on the basketball team or baseball team that they didn't even know. One case in particular I remember one of my teammates bringing this girl up to the dorm, which was against the rules. He "snuk" her up there, had sex with her and then took her back to her car. Over the next week she realized that all he did was use her. She became FURIOUS!!! Going as far as to confront him in front of several of us saying "All you did was use me for sex." Now, she didn't file rape charges or even accuse him of rape. But the opportunity and emotions were definitely there for her to take that road if she so decided. Granted he was in the wrong for doing that girl that way. But on the other side of the coin. How stupid do you have to be to go home with a dude you just met at a club, have sex with him and think he's entirely to blame because all he wanted was to have sex and nothing more?

There's a thing called "putting yourself in a bad situation" that I was taught my entire life. Think before you do this or that. Don't go in some parts of town, don't go to such and such place alone. Know your surroundings. My sisters were given the same advice and luckily they followed it and avoided a lot of the hoopla that I think many girls (college girls especially) experience.

nm...

 

[superbamashane]

I don't know anyone who disagrees with stop means stop. "Leading a guy on" may have been a poor choice of words but what I meant is sometimes the girl may change her mind after the act and regret what she's done or she may be trying to take advantage of the guy.

I still don't get where this is related to the football team being more important than the victim.

I personally know someone this happened to. A guy I know had been talking to a girl for a couple of weeks. They met up at a bar, got wasted, and ended up going back to his place. The girl sobered up the next morning and filed rape charges. She openly admitted that she probably consented, but she was drunk. Judge ruled that because she was intoxicated, she was incapable of giving consent. Off to prison he went.

 

[IH8Orange]

Aside from this specific case I get what you're saying and yes it happens. Kids (college kids in this case) get into situations where they make decisions they soon regret. I know it is very unpopular to say but a lot of girls at that age do things with their bodies they eventually regret. Some regret it immediately some it takes longer. Some react with internal regret others react with lashing out at the other party they made the bad decision with. Some even going as for as accusations of rape. Please note I'm not saying this is what happened in the Winston case. I'm talking in general.

Being a former college athlete I saw first hand girls throw themselves at players (and I went to a community college so I can only imagine what its like at D1 level). Whether it be football, baseball or basketball players. I can tell of stories where girls willfully gave themselves to some dude on the basketball team or baseball team that they didn't even know. One case in particular I remember one of my teammates bringing this girl up to the dorm, which was against the rules. He "snuk" her up there, had sex with her and then took her back to her car. Over the next week she realized that all he did was use her. She became FURIOUS!!! Going as far as to confront him in front of several of us saying "All you did was use me for sex." Now, she didn't file rape charges or even accuse him of rape. But the opportunity and emotions were definitely there for her to take that road if she so decided. Granted he was in the wrong for doing that girl that way. But on the other side of the coin. How stupid do you have to be to go home with a dude you just met at a club, have sex with him and think he's entirely to blame because all he wanted was to have sex and nothing more?

There's a thing called "putting yourself in a bad situation" that I was taught my entire life. Think before you do this or that. Don't go in some parts of town, don't go to such and such place alone. Know your surroundings. My sisters were given the same advice and luckily they followed it and avoided a lot of the hoopla that I think many girls (college girls especially) experience.

A couple of years after graduating from college, I moved to Birmingham and shared an apartment with one of my friends from college. Over the next few months, we met many of our neighbors and ended up becoming part of a "hang-out" group of friends. Two girls (I'll call them Kay and Joy) that were freshmen at a local college were part of this group. They were both very attractive and came from a small town where they had been "sheltered" (or perhaps, more appropriately, "suppressed") by the environment, so they wanted to live it up. They had both gotten fake IDs and sometimes went to bars. It became evident that Kay had a pretty good head on her shoulders, but Joy had a sometimes out-of-control wild side that Kay had never seen before and they seemed to distance themselves from each other just a bit.

After a few months, it seemed that Joy was never around. Kay said that she was staying over at her boyfriend's place most of the time and that she wasn't making it to her classes much of the time. I was at their apartment once when Joy showed up and Kay asked her something about missing classes and Joy had a angry knee-jerk reaction about being "lectured" and she had "left my parents back in" whatever-burg and didn't need us to protect her and she slammed the door behind her.

One night out at a club, we ran into them and Joy's boyfriend (call him "Roy") was creepy. Roy was an amateur MMA fighter and part-time model and he had full control of Joy and yet was completely paranoid and jealous. She spoke to a guy in our group and when she came over, Roy was whispering to her, but his voice was so loud that everyone heard him tell her, "You better not -bleep- with me cause every girl here wants to be where you are." Joy was like a scolded puppy and stayed right beside him the rest of the night even though he would flirt with and make crude comments to other girls. I told Kay that this guy was trouble and she agreed.

Inevitably, Joy was beaten up by Roy who took her to one of his friends who was a nurse who patched her up and wouldn't alert authorities. Of course Joy lied to us saying that she was riding a dirt bike and wrecked. We gave her the first of many warnings, which she ignored and after a few more beating episodes, Joy moved in with Roy. I asked her once why she wouldn't find someone that would treat her better and she said that "dangerous guys excite me and good guys are just boring". Later, she had an abortion which Roy refused to help pay for and subsequently beat her up saying that she killed his child.

Eventually Joy's parents got wind of some of what she was doing and they sent someone down to find out what was going on. They cut off all her money so she had to drop out of school and she said she was staying in Birmingham with Roy. Then when they found out about the abortion, she said that Roy raped her but she wouldn't file charges. Then it came to light that she and Roy had been earlier arrested on drug charges, were out on bond, and awaiting trial. Joy's father worked with the prosecutor and he got her charges dropped and she had to return to whatever-burg and start working in a grocery store there. A promising future -- wasted because of HER choices.

Roy is what Roy is: a creep, a druggie, a woman-beater, and perhaps a rapist. Joy is what Joy is: a girl addicted to risky behavior and perhaps a rape victim. But she isn't blameless AT ALL. She was repeatedly warned, beaten, and kept going back for more. So I feel absolutely no pity for her and she is just as culpable in my estimation as Roy because she chose to keep herself in a situation where it was inevitable that something bad would happen to her. Someone was going to be Roy's victim and she made the choice to assume that role. As one of the "boring" good guys who often sat at home on weekends while many of the girls chose to go out with the "exciting" bad boys, I refuse to consider them entirely blameless when their date with their bad boy turns bad.

Some people see the issue completely as black and white in that assigning any blame whatsoever to the victim gives some justification to the perpetrator or somehow lessens their own culpability or mitigates the seriousness of the crime. That isn't the case at all. The fact is that some victims became victims because of their own choices and that doesn't assign them blame in the action itself, but it does assign blame in their becoming the victim of the action. As an analog, if I said, "I like hanging out with dangerous drug dealers" and while hanging out with a group of them one flips out, pulls up his Glock and I yell "Stop" and yet he plugs me with an entire clip, am I blameless because I yelled "Stop?" The fact that I was hanging out with these individuals does not give one of them the right to shoot me, so it doesn't lessen the culpability of the shooter. But I am the victim because I chose to include myself in a situation that was risky.

Life would be just peachy if we could do anything we want and not have to endure consequences, but it's not that way. There are men who will rape and no-one can change that. However, the choices that women make DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE in their chances of being a victim. Even making all the right choices doesn't completely eliminate the chances of being victimized, but it makes that chance much, much less. Those that refuse to recognize that women do affect their chances of being victimized by some of their decisions are not helping the situation at all. They are helping the rapists by downplaying the effect of the bad decisions that some victims do make and thus promulgating this false idea that women have no power to prevent themselves from being victimized.

 

[IH8Orange]

For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.

If you were the one sitting in prison (of course rapists in prison don't always sit), with your name smeared, your family shamed, and knowing that when you get out, you will be a pariah because of the sex offender registry and the record and YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, you might care. It's pretty typical to not care when you aren't affected.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

For you, the next line might read:

When Joe was falsely accused of rape,
I consented;
Because tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped and I haven't been falsely accused of rape.

When I was falsely accused of rape,
I protested my innocence;
The prosecutor said "Did you not post on Tidefans.com on 1/28/2015 the following?"

I am a firm believer in guilty until proven innocent when it comes to rape allegations.

and

Sure, some women falsely accuse men of rape, but if I had to bet on the real percentage of those occurrences, I would put it so low as to be statistically irrelevant.

Prosecutor:"Sure, we have no DNA evidence, no proof that the victim and B1GTide were together, no proof that they know each other, and B1GTide has a well-supported alibi but EVEN ACCORDING TO HIM, false rape accusations are SO RARE that they are statistically irrelevant. So, we should consider the rape allegation against him to be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT because the chances of the allegation being false is

so low as to be statistically irrelevant.

The state rests its case.

 

[B1GTide]

If you were the one sitting in prison (of course rapists in prison don't always sit), with your name smeared, your family shamed, and knowing that when you get out, you will be a pariah because of the sex offender registry and the record and YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, you might care. It's pretty typical to not care when you aren't affected.

I do not accept that many men have been falsely accused of rape. Everyone has a story like the one posted earlier. They are "legend". I simply do not believe them. You can if you wish. I do not and will not. A woman gets drunk and has sex with a man and admits later in court that she might have consented - the man does not go to jail unless he has a prior record, there are other extenuating circumstances (he drugged her drink or got her drunk on purpose) or she is under-aged. Period. Show me evidence where it has happened and I will consider it, but I don't accept an internet legend as proof of anything.

Women are raped every day - hundreds of women - maybe more - every day. Most are raped by someone that they know and trust, not by a stranger that they picked up at a bar. But you are afraid that you will be falsely accused? Please. How about the fear for the women being raped? Save your fear for them. I am not afraid for myself or my sons.

 

[B1GTide]

Life would be just peachy if we could do anything we want and not have to endure consequences, but it's not that way. There are men who will rape and no-one can change that. However, the choices that women make DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE in their chances of being a victim. Even making all the right choices doesn't completely eliminate the chances of being victimized, but it makes that chance much, much less. Those that refuse to recognize that women do affect their chances of being victimized by some of their decisions are not helping the situation at all. They are helping the rapists by downplaying the effect of the bad decisions that some victims do make and thus promulgating this false idea that women have no power to prevent themselves from being victimized.

Going to a bar and drinking with your friends should not be "risky" behavior. Attending a frat party should not be "risky" behavior. And parents tell their daughters to travel in groups and never leave any of the group alone, even to go to the bathroom. Education doesn't help. Because no one believes that they are going to be the victim of a crime until it happens. The bar feels safe and you are with your friends having fun. You are young and life is full of endless possibilities - not dangers.

Young people think differently than we do. That does not make their behavior part of the problem. It isn't. The sole problem is that there are people out there who are predators, and we make excuses for them and protect them.

ETA - I apologize if my posts in this area are too caustic. I'll drop out of the thread at this point. This is a problem that has impacted my family directly, and I probably feel too strongly about it to be objective.

 

[IH8Orange]

But you are afraid that you will be falsely accused? Please. How about the fear for the women being raped? Save your fear for them. I am not afraid for myself or my sons.

The "You can worry about it but I don't because I am morally superior and above the spectre of suspicion" defense.

There are three forms of false rape accusations. One is where the act never happened and those ARE probably quite rare. Another is where the victim consented initially and then regretted their decision and those are much more common. The last is where the victim does not know her attacker, gives a general description, and then picks an innocent man from a lineup because maybe he does look like the person that attacked her and there is evidence that he was in the area or he doesn't have a solid alibi for the time of the crime. The last case is also rare, but there are plenty of cases where not only were charges filed but even some convictions resulted. Some of the men that were falsely convicted have been freed due to modern DNA technology and the hard work of The Innocence Project, but even those come home to a situation where most people still look at them with a jaded eye and their lives will never be the same.

I prefer "innocent until proven guilty" and I realize that our society will never realize that ideal because it's just too easy or maybe more satisfying to prejudge people before waiting until all the facts are in. We're an "I want it NOW" society even in application of justice. Maybe we should just do away with the courts and return to the methods of the Inquisition. Surely people don't ever make false accusations or accuse the wrong person of a crime, so let's just burn 'em at the stake and save the cost of trials.

 

[IH8Orange]

Going to a bar and drinking with your friends should not be "risky" behavior. Attending a frat party should not be "risky" behavior. And parents tell their daughters to travel in groups and never leave any of the group alone, even to go to the bathroom. Education doesn't help. Because no one believes that they are going to be the victim of a crime until it happens. The bar feels safe and you are with your friends having fun. You are young and life is full of endless possibilities - not dangers.

Young people think differently than we do. That does not make their behavior part of the problem. It isn't. The sole problem is that there are people out there who are predators, and we make excuses for them and protect them.

There are a lot of "should"'s in life. People should be able to walk down any street and not worry about being mugged, stabbed, or shot. That's not the case, however. If I tell someone, "Hey, I wouldn't walk down Stickemup Avenue after dark," I'm not making excuses for a predator or protecting them. I'm giving a warning to someone that they may have to alter their behavior to protect themself. Apparently, you think that warning women about behaviors that put them at more risk of being a victim is making excuses for rapists. That's completely inane. I warn my kids everyday about the choices they make. Do you think that I do that to protect people that are a danger to them? You've got everything completely backward.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.

You're grossly missing the point...

 

[Bamabuzzard]

The "You can worry about it but I don't because I am morally superior and above the spectre of suspicion" defense.

There are three forms of false rape accusations. One is where the act never happened and those ARE probably quite rare. Another is where the victim consented initially and then regretted their decision and those are much more common. The last is where the victim does not know her attacker, gives a general description, and then picks an innocent man from a lineup because maybe he does look like the person that attacked her and there is evidence that he was in the area or he doesn't have a solid alibi for the time of the crime. The last case is also rare, but there are plenty of cases where not only were charges filed but even some convictions resulted. Some of the men that were falsely convicted have been freed due to modern DNA technology and the hard work of The Innocence Project, but even those come home to a situation where most people still look at them with a jaded eye and their lives will never be the same.

I prefer "innocent until proven guilty" and I realize that our society will never realize that ideal because it's just too easy or maybe more satisfying to prejudge people before waiting until all the facts are in. We're an "I want it NOW" society even in application of justice. Maybe we should just do away with the courts and return to the methods of the Inquisition. Surely people don't ever make false accusations or accuse the wrong person of a crime, so let's just burn 'em at the stake and save the cost of trials.

It's easy because they aren't the ones being accused. It's like my wife's OBGYN told me one time when I told my wife "It's just minor surgery". "It's only minor when you're not the one going under."

 

[B1GTide]

You're grossly missing the point...

Sorry - I am not, you guys are. The problem is the rape. Your behavior and this very discussion is a huge part of the problem. This thought process protects those who rape at the expense of the victims. You are saying that women who go out drinking at a bar are responsible for their rape because they should have known better. Disgusting.

Don't blame evil men for rape - look in the mirror. You are part of the problem.

 

[IH8Orange]

I do not accept that many men have been falsely accused of rape. Everyone has a story like the one posted earlier. They are "legend". I simply do not believe them. You can if you wish. I do not and will not.

So everyone is a liar?

But you are afraid that you will be falsely accused? Please. How about the fear for the women being raped? Save your fear for them. I am not afraid for myself or my sons.

And parents tell their daughters to travel in groups and never leave any of the group alone, even to go to the bathroom. Education doesn't help. Because no one believes that they are going to be the victim of a crime until it happens.

Young people think differently than we do. That does not make their behavior part of the problem. It isn't. The sole problem is that there are people out there who are predators, and we make excuses for them and protect them.

You seem to contradict yourself. You are not afraid for yourself or your sons. Why? Is it just blissful faith or is it because you and your sons don't engage in behaviors or put yourself into situations where you could be accused? If the former is the case, then you are an optimist with no equal. If the latter is the case, then why is it different for someone to encourage their daughters to do the same?

When my son begins dating, I am going to tell him a lot of the same things that I will tell my daughter. Stay with people you know and trust. Stay in areas that are well-lit where there are other people present. Don't go off with a person of the opposite gender where no-one can account for your presence for more than just a few seconds. I intend to protect him from bad consequences just like my daughter. You can turn a deaf ear to the fact that there are false rape accusations, but they do happen and just like actual rapes, behavior IS a factor in who becomes a victim and who doesn't.

If you feel that you and your sons are impervious to false rape accusations, there must be some reason why. If it is because you engage in responsible behaviors and avoid risky situations, then you are admitting that behavior IS a factor in becoming a victim to a crime.

 

[IH8Orange]

Sorry - I am not, you guys are. The problem is the rape. Your behavior and this very discussion is a huge part of the problem. This thought process protects those who rape at the expense of the victims. You are saying that women who go out drinking at a bar are responsible for their rape because they should have known better. Disgusting.

Don't blame evil men for rape - look in the mirror. You are part of the problem.

I am responsible for all rape because I think that women can protect themselves by not placing themselves into risky situations.

I can't live with myself. I'm committing seppuku as you read this.

EDIT: OUCH! I just rolled my computer chair over my dangling entrails. I need some Ibuprofen. OHHH!!!!

2nd EDIT: How about the Rape of Nanking? I wasn't born in 1937, but is that also my fault? The seppuku is taking too long. If I am also responsible for Nanking and even the Soviets in Berlin in 1945, then I'm going to shoot off my kneecaps as well.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Sorry - I am not, you guys are. The problem is the rape. Your behavior and this very discussion is a huge part of the problem. This thought process protects those who rape at the expense of the victims. You are saying that women who go out drinking at a bar are responsible for their rape because they should have known better. Disgusting.

Don't blame evil men for rape - look in the mirror. You are part of the problem.

Whatever has happened in your personal life has grossly distorted your thinking. That is obvious ("Guilty until proven innocent"). Whatever happened I'm sorry it did but you're letting emotions get the best of your judgement. You probably need to bow out of this conversation...

 

[B1GTide]

You are not afraid for yourself or your sons. Why?

Because this is not a problem worth worrying about. It is like worrying about dying in a plane crash. Could it happen? Sure. But the chances are so remote that it can be discounted completely and should not alter your behavior.

On the other hand, nearly one in five women will be raped in America. That is a problem. What you are discussing is not a problem. When men change the discussion away from rape to something like this (some women lie, women should travel in groups, women should not get drunk in a bar or at a party, women should be more careful, etc), they do so because they are conditioned to do so. These are not your thoughts - they have been taught to you and you accept them. Question them. Learn the truth. Stop spreading lies and half truths that protect predators.

 

[B1GTide]

You probably need to bow out of this conversation...

I will - this is my last post in this thread. But you need to have your views on this challenged.

 

[IH8Orange]

Because this is not a problem worth worrying about. It is like worrying about dying in a plane crash. Could it happen? Sure. But the chances are so remote that it can be discounted completely and should not alter your behavior.

On the other hand, nearly one in five women will be raped in America. That is a problem. What you are discussing is not a problem. When men change the discussion away from rape to something like this (some women lie, women should travel in groups, women should not get drunk in a bar or at a party, women should be more careful, etc), they do so because they are conditioned to do so. These are not your thoughts - they have been taught to you and you accept them. Question them. Learn the truth. Stop spreading lies and half truths that protect predators.

Well gosh. I'll just tell my daughter to do whatever she wants then. I wouldn't want to protect predators.

EDIT: If it's the low probability that is why you don't worry about it, then why did you specify "me and my sons" and not "all men"? I think you are backtracking a bit here.

EDIT2: I guess I'll just tell my son to do whatever he wants also. He's got nothing to worry about. I'm sure that's what you told your sons: "Behave any way you want, sons of mine, around women. They're not going to accuse you of anything, so don't worry about it."

 

[bamabelle1991]

I am a firm believer in guilty until proven innocent when it comes to rape allegations. Backwards, I know, but I have too many women close to me who have been raped. And there is a lot of pressure on those women to just accept some blame for it (they call it "responsibility", but they mean blame) and let it go. Women often recant when it becomes more clear to them exactly hat they will face if they follow through with charges. The shame of a "lie" is a lot easier to deal with than the shame of having been raped.

Sure, some women falsely accuse men of rape, but if I had to bet on the real percentage of those occurrences, I would put it so low as to be statistically irrelevant.

I get what you are saying and for the most part I agree. But, here is your statistically irrelevant proof...It happened.

The situation I am referring to was a girl (who had a boyfriend) had been flirting with another boy. She invited him to the school locker room after school for oral sex. He had two friends who were with him who were the lookouts--after all, it was baseball season and people were in and out of the facility all afternoon. She has sex with the first guy and then invited boy #2 in. During this rendevous, her boyfriend walked in. To avoid a problem with him, she waited until he left and then snuck out of the locker room. She told her parents she was raped. The police questioned the boys and all three of them had the same story. After they questioned her, she broke down and told them the truth--that she instigated the sex acts and they were consensual and she only said it was rape when her boyfriend walked in. Bottom line here--she was a girl who regularly gave out sexual favors and when she got caught, she lied and eventually her conscience took over and she did the right thing. Of course, the boys should have say no thanks, but come on--3 teenage boys? LOL. They aren't going to say no. Because of her actions, 2 otherwise fine young men almost faced rape charges and if found delinquent, a year in a sex offender program and a lifetime of registering and reporting as sex offenders. She almost ruined THEIR lives. NOT COOL.

 

[IH8Orange]

On the other hand, nearly one in five women will be raped in America. That is a problem. What you are discussing is not a problem. When men change the discussion away from rape to something like this (some women lie, women should travel in groups, women should not get drunk in a bar or at a party, women should be more careful, etc), they do so because they are conditioned to do so. These are not your thoughts - they have been taught to you and you accept them. Question them. Learn the truth. Stop spreading lies and half truths that protect predators.

If these are not my thoughts, then I can't be held culpable for all rape and for protecting predators.

I'm quite disturbed. First I find out that I'm responsible for all rapes (still waiting for a verdict about Nanking and Berlin), I commit seppuku, and then you tell me that I am operating on thoughts that were not mine. I'm trying to collect up my entrails and stuff them back inside. Why didn't you tell me that I was just a puppet of the rapist protectors before I did this?

I think I've got them all back in... I can't find duct tape. I guess I can hold them in and drive to the ER. Good thing I didn't blow off my kneecaps without duct tape.