While compiling the stuff for the 80s Braves, I got to thinking about this. Where would Cox rank among the managers all-time as far as being the greatest?
Cox is 4th all-time in wins - behind Connie Mack, Tony LaRussa, and John McGraw.
He is 13th ranked by winning percentage.
I won't go so far as to say I'm sure Cox is the greatest manager of all-time, but it seems sure to me he's one of them. Let's deal with a few names sure to be brought up in the discussion:
Connie Mack - yeah, I know he won the most games, but he also lost the most games, had a losing record as a manager, managed for half a century and, oh yeah, OWNED THE TEAM. Yes, he won 9 pennants and 5 World Series, building two of the great teams of all time (1910-14 and 1929-31 Athletics)...back when it was a 16-team league with no free agency. If Mack had managed for any owner, he would have been fired sometime during his 7 straight last place finishes (1915-21). It wouldn't have mattered that his team got gutted by the Federal League, which exploded the baseball salary structure. I'm not trying to discredit Mack, he was clearly a very good manager - but no manager in history could have ever survived 7 straight last place finishes unless he owned the team.
Casey Stengel - and here we go with the Michael Jordan argument - "but he won SEVEN World Series!" Sure he did - with the Yankees. When he managed the Dodgers and Braves for nine years, he never finished higher than fifth, and he only had one season above .500. EVERYBODY won a World Series with the Yankees. Stengel wasn't even the best manager who won a World Series with the Yankees. Bucky Harris - whom Stengel replaced - won a World Series with the goshawful Washington Senators in his rookie year of 1924 and had them up, 3-1, the next year before they blew it against Pittsburgh. Harris also formed the infrastructure of the Tigers, resigning in 1933 right before they lost a classic series in 1934 and then won it all in 1935. He then won his first year with the Yankees (1947) and got canned after winning 94 games in 1948. It could be argued Harris built the Yankee dynasty that Stengel inherited, too, up to a point. Berra and DiMaggio were already there as were Allie Reynolds and Phil Rizzuto. Sure, Stengel got Mickey Mantle. Do you really think back in those days Mantle wasn't going to be a Yankee anyway? Remember: Yogi Berra won a pennant his rookie year as Yankee manager in 1964 and got the team to the 7th game of the World Series. The playing field deck was so stacked, anyone could win with those teams.
John McGraw - you can sort of make the Yankee argument with McGraw, although he was clearly a skilled baseball mind. He won 10 pennants and would have won 11 but for Fred Merkle's blunder in 1908. But he only won the WS three times and is the only manager to ever lose 3 straight WS, too. McGraw - of these three listed so far - was probably the best actual manager. He did face Mack in the World Series 3 times, winning the first and losing the last two.
Tony LaRussa - more wins than Cox but 450 more losses (and climbing) but 20 points lower on the winning pct, too. LaRussa won 12 pennants with three different franchises - White Sox, Oakland, St Louis - and won the World Series three times. On the other hand, his team also flopped three times in a major way in the World Series, too, losing in 5 games to the upstart Dodgers in 1988 and getting blown off the field by the 1990 Reds - and then REALLY getting blown of the field by the 2004 Red Sox. LaRussa and Cox are sort of thought of together in the public mind, and it makes sense. Bobby began in 1978, LaRussa in August 1979. Both got fired from their first managining gigs, resigned the second to go elsewhere, and won a lot of regular season games. I guess you can argue LaRussa IS better, except you also have to remember that the three teams Tony inherited were MUCH BETTER than the teams Cox inherited. Cox lost four years twice just trying to build a foundation for teams. And he sat out another four years as a GM trying to rebuild what Joe Torre (see below) blew up. LaRussa inherited a bad team in Chicago in 1979 and in St Louis as well, but Cox inherited a team that lost 101 games in 1977, a team that played .349 ball in the strike season of 1981, and took over as GM for a team that lost 96 games in 1985. And LaRussa played in the easiest division in baseball (AL West) for much of the run. I don't want to take a lot away from him, but I've never been persuaded that LaRussa is actually a better manager than Cox is. Despite having a ten-year head start, LaRussa has a lower winning percentage.
Joe Torre - yeah, he won four World Series...by inheriting a team and just not screwing up. Torre is the one who blew up the Braves and left a mess for Cox to clean up after Cox had it on the rise. Torre also was with the Mets when they were awful, but I'll give him a pass on that one because the ownership at the time was Dumb and Dumber. But Torre also blew up the Cardinals that he inherited a solid team from Whitey Herzog. Guess who replaced Torre? LaRussa!! So how in the world do you say "Torre is better than LaRussa because 4-3 WS rings"? Torre blew up 3 differen teams...and we're gonna give him a pass because four WS at a time baseball was figuring out the salary structure was way too heavy in favor of the big market teams? Notice how the moment the luxury tax began, he never won another championship? Torre won fewer games than Cox, only lost 4 fewer, has a much lower winning pct - and won a chunk of his games as manager BECAUSE OF COX!!!!
Sparky Anderson - if you were to ask me who I've seen better than Cox, this guy would be the first name I'd say. Sparky Anderson won World Series with two different leagues (Big Red Machine, 1984 Detroit) despite penny-pinching ownerships that kept his team largely out of the free agent market. Free agency destroyed his dynasty, coming along as the Reds went 7-0 in the 1976 post-season and obliterated everyone. Tony Perez left and Sparky got fired when Pete Rose left - yet the team Sparky left John McNamara won the pennant the very next year (1979). Sparky, like Cox, lost a couple of WS before he finally won one. In fact, the parallels are somewhat interesting if you take Cox from when his team got good:
First year - lose WS (Anderson, Cox)
Second year - Anderson has bad year, Cox loses WS
Third year - Anderson loses WS, Cox loses LCS
Fourth year - Anderson loses LCS, so does Cox (strike)
Fifth year - Anderson finishes 2nd, Cox wins WS
Sixth year - Anderson wins WS, Cox loses WS
Seventh year - Anderson wins WS, Cox loses LCS (97)
Eighth year - Anderson finishes 2nd, Cox loses LCS
Ninth year - Anderson finishes 2nd, Cox loses WS
Billy Martin and Dick Williams MAY have been better managers than Cox, but their tempers and treatment of people were so egregious that nobody would choose them as their manager over Cox.
And Whitey Herzog might have Cox as a game strategist, too.
Me?
I'd rate Anderson maybe slightly ahead of Cox, McGraw perhaps better, and LaRussa maybe even at best.
Best ever? Probably not.
One of the top five? Absolutely.
Cox is 4th all-time in wins - behind Connie Mack, Tony LaRussa, and John McGraw.
He is 13th ranked by winning percentage.
I won't go so far as to say I'm sure Cox is the greatest manager of all-time, but it seems sure to me he's one of them. Let's deal with a few names sure to be brought up in the discussion:
Connie Mack - yeah, I know he won the most games, but he also lost the most games, had a losing record as a manager, managed for half a century and, oh yeah, OWNED THE TEAM. Yes, he won 9 pennants and 5 World Series, building two of the great teams of all time (1910-14 and 1929-31 Athletics)...back when it was a 16-team league with no free agency. If Mack had managed for any owner, he would have been fired sometime during his 7 straight last place finishes (1915-21). It wouldn't have mattered that his team got gutted by the Federal League, which exploded the baseball salary structure. I'm not trying to discredit Mack, he was clearly a very good manager - but no manager in history could have ever survived 7 straight last place finishes unless he owned the team.
Casey Stengel - and here we go with the Michael Jordan argument - "but he won SEVEN World Series!" Sure he did - with the Yankees. When he managed the Dodgers and Braves for nine years, he never finished higher than fifth, and he only had one season above .500. EVERYBODY won a World Series with the Yankees. Stengel wasn't even the best manager who won a World Series with the Yankees. Bucky Harris - whom Stengel replaced - won a World Series with the goshawful Washington Senators in his rookie year of 1924 and had them up, 3-1, the next year before they blew it against Pittsburgh. Harris also formed the infrastructure of the Tigers, resigning in 1933 right before they lost a classic series in 1934 and then won it all in 1935. He then won his first year with the Yankees (1947) and got canned after winning 94 games in 1948. It could be argued Harris built the Yankee dynasty that Stengel inherited, too, up to a point. Berra and DiMaggio were already there as were Allie Reynolds and Phil Rizzuto. Sure, Stengel got Mickey Mantle. Do you really think back in those days Mantle wasn't going to be a Yankee anyway? Remember: Yogi Berra won a pennant his rookie year as Yankee manager in 1964 and got the team to the 7th game of the World Series. The playing field deck was so stacked, anyone could win with those teams.
John McGraw - you can sort of make the Yankee argument with McGraw, although he was clearly a skilled baseball mind. He won 10 pennants and would have won 11 but for Fred Merkle's blunder in 1908. But he only won the WS three times and is the only manager to ever lose 3 straight WS, too. McGraw - of these three listed so far - was probably the best actual manager. He did face Mack in the World Series 3 times, winning the first and losing the last two.
Tony LaRussa - more wins than Cox but 450 more losses (and climbing) but 20 points lower on the winning pct, too. LaRussa won 12 pennants with three different franchises - White Sox, Oakland, St Louis - and won the World Series three times. On the other hand, his team also flopped three times in a major way in the World Series, too, losing in 5 games to the upstart Dodgers in 1988 and getting blown off the field by the 1990 Reds - and then REALLY getting blown of the field by the 2004 Red Sox. LaRussa and Cox are sort of thought of together in the public mind, and it makes sense. Bobby began in 1978, LaRussa in August 1979. Both got fired from their first managining gigs, resigned the second to go elsewhere, and won a lot of regular season games. I guess you can argue LaRussa IS better, except you also have to remember that the three teams Tony inherited were MUCH BETTER than the teams Cox inherited. Cox lost four years twice just trying to build a foundation for teams. And he sat out another four years as a GM trying to rebuild what Joe Torre (see below) blew up. LaRussa inherited a bad team in Chicago in 1979 and in St Louis as well, but Cox inherited a team that lost 101 games in 1977, a team that played .349 ball in the strike season of 1981, and took over as GM for a team that lost 96 games in 1985. And LaRussa played in the easiest division in baseball (AL West) for much of the run. I don't want to take a lot away from him, but I've never been persuaded that LaRussa is actually a better manager than Cox is. Despite having a ten-year head start, LaRussa has a lower winning percentage.
Joe Torre - yeah, he won four World Series...by inheriting a team and just not screwing up. Torre is the one who blew up the Braves and left a mess for Cox to clean up after Cox had it on the rise. Torre also was with the Mets when they were awful, but I'll give him a pass on that one because the ownership at the time was Dumb and Dumber. But Torre also blew up the Cardinals that he inherited a solid team from Whitey Herzog. Guess who replaced Torre? LaRussa!! So how in the world do you say "Torre is better than LaRussa because 4-3 WS rings"? Torre blew up 3 differen teams...and we're gonna give him a pass because four WS at a time baseball was figuring out the salary structure was way too heavy in favor of the big market teams? Notice how the moment the luxury tax began, he never won another championship? Torre won fewer games than Cox, only lost 4 fewer, has a much lower winning pct - and won a chunk of his games as manager BECAUSE OF COX!!!!
Sparky Anderson - if you were to ask me who I've seen better than Cox, this guy would be the first name I'd say. Sparky Anderson won World Series with two different leagues (Big Red Machine, 1984 Detroit) despite penny-pinching ownerships that kept his team largely out of the free agent market. Free agency destroyed his dynasty, coming along as the Reds went 7-0 in the 1976 post-season and obliterated everyone. Tony Perez left and Sparky got fired when Pete Rose left - yet the team Sparky left John McNamara won the pennant the very next year (1979). Sparky, like Cox, lost a couple of WS before he finally won one. In fact, the parallels are somewhat interesting if you take Cox from when his team got good:
First year - lose WS (Anderson, Cox)
Second year - Anderson has bad year, Cox loses WS
Third year - Anderson loses WS, Cox loses LCS
Fourth year - Anderson loses LCS, so does Cox (strike)
Fifth year - Anderson finishes 2nd, Cox wins WS
Sixth year - Anderson wins WS, Cox loses WS
Seventh year - Anderson wins WS, Cox loses LCS (97)
Eighth year - Anderson finishes 2nd, Cox loses LCS
Ninth year - Anderson finishes 2nd, Cox loses WS
Billy Martin and Dick Williams MAY have been better managers than Cox, but their tempers and treatment of people were so egregious that nobody would choose them as their manager over Cox.
And Whitey Herzog might have Cox as a game strategist, too.
Me?
I'd rate Anderson maybe slightly ahead of Cox, McGraw perhaps better, and LaRussa maybe even at best.
Best ever? Probably not.
One of the top five? Absolutely.