OC and DC replacement discussion

[gtgilbert]

AS I agree the D is outdated and needs to be updated, the DC is not going anywhere, BOB hopefully to NFL or elsewhere.

Upon further review I may should have posted this in this thread but I posted it in the good, bad, and ugly since pretty much it is, well more a lot of great, some good, little bad, and way too much ugly. Sorry if I messed up. This is what I have been talking about.

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There's a lot of talk about the D being outdated, but realistically we are NOT running the same defense Saban brought when he started. The groupings have changed, the position profiles have changed, the way the front 6-7 play is very different - it's really not even close other that some of the secondary concepts and pattern matching. Certainly nothing in the game drastically changed after the 2017 season, prior to which our worst defense was 6th, to now not even being in the top 20 - right now we are at 18PPG, which would be Goldings best ever so a little improvement but still worse than all but 1 prior D. If this is truly "Sabans Defense", Smart and Pruitt dang sure knew how to make the right calls in the context of the overall Defense from Saban, where Golding doesn't appear able to do so.

for the record, that 2018 defense which dropped from #1 down to #12 wasn't short on talent. EVERY single starter from that defense is on an NFL roster. except for Dylan Moses, and the only reason he isn't is because of the knee injury. In 2018 he led the team in tackles and was just waiting to be a first round pick till the knee went south. We're talking mack Wilson, Trevon Diggs, S Smith, Surtain II, X McKinney, Deionte Thompson, I Buggs, Quinnen Williams, Raekwon Davis, A Jennings etc. The talent was MORE than there to be successful, yet the end result really wasn't.

 

[KrAzY3]

for the record, that 2018 defense which dropped from #1 down to #12 wasn't short on talent. EVERY single starter from that defense is on an NFL roster. except for Dylan Moses, and the only reason he isn't is because of the knee injury. In 2018 he led the team in tackles and was just waiting to be a first round pick till the knee went south. We're talking mack Wilson, Trevon Diggs, S Smith, Surtain II, X McKinney, Deionte Thompson, I Buggs, Quinnen Williams, Raekwon Davis, A Jennings etc. The talent was MORE than there to be successful, yet the end result really wasn't.

And you can really credit the 2017 defense for that championship in the same way the lack of that type of defense stopped Alabama in 2018. In 2017 there was no offense the first half, only the play of the defense kept Alabama in the game. In 2018 we once again saw a lot of struggles on offense, but what wasn't there was that elite defense. They gave up 31 points in the first half and the game was over. Compare that to 13 in the first half the previous year, mind you with an offense that wasn't helping one bit.

That type of defense hasn't returned since then either... I can't put an exact number on it, but I am absolutely resolute in my belief that if Alabama has a better quality DC they'd have at least one more championship.

 

[Ole Man Dan]

Yeah, if only Saban's scheme worked the past 3 or 4 years.

Wait, Georgia has had the #1 scoring defense the past two seasons running that scheme? You know, just like Alabama had the two years before Golding was hired? C'mon people, Golding was at Alabama the past 3 or 4 years. That's the reason you started doubting the defense, because Golding sucks. You didn't want to change it two years before he was hired when it was #1 now did you?

It's not rocket science. The Georgia defense is what Saban used to have at Alabama before Golding took over. There's nothing wrong with the defense!

Your 'PREACHING TO THE CHOIR'

 

[Lucky Jack]

What I remember being said is he "simplified" it.

We hear from time to time that CNS defense is very complex. It's likely why we have busts a lot.

May be a different article from the one I read. The one I read said that Saban basically has 2 defensive playbooks: one for runs and one for passes. Kirby only has one playbook, which, to your point, is definitely a simplification.

 

[Lucky Jack]

Your 'PREACHING TO THE CHOIR'

*You're

 

[Tidelines]

*You're

They would let that slide on an Auburn site. Probably not ”no” the difference.

 

[bamafaninbham]

So just what is going on with the two GOATS. Saban has let an underperforming DC hang around for years and doesn't override his OC when he goes braindead for stretches during games with the play calling. Oh look the run game is gashing them, let's throw the ball three straight times and then punt.

And then you have Bill Belichick hire two defensive minded coaches to be co-offensive coordinators. Why are these football geniuses(and past performance proves this to be true) making what arm chair coaches believe to be stupid moves on the coordinator choices?

 

[Foleybammer]

I would like to see both coordinators replaced due to the fact the last two seasons there
has been no consistency in performance. Only on rare occasions have the defense and offense
played at a high level the same game. It's a crime Bryce never quaterbacked a national
championship team.

 

[BamaMoon]

I think the opposing coaches have figured out to just under through the ball against our DB’s and we will get called for PI every time. If our DB’s would just look for the ball they would have 1 to 2 interceptions per game.

Years ago, I don't remember "the back shoulder pass" (maybe it was a thing and they just called it an underthrow...lol), but it is definitely a tactic to beat tight coverage and seems to work about 90% of the time because of the corner runs past the receiver when he stops for it.

I know CNS is a "CB expert" but this just seems like an area that he needs to adjust how he teaches coverage.

I know it's been pointed out that when our corners take their eyes off the receiver to find the ball the receiver can adjust to the ball, but as you state, the same is true for the corner and it would seem we'd have more INTs.

Adding the DPI factor and teams with inferior QBs just throwing a lot a deep "hail mary" hoping for DPI (can you say Nick Marshall?) seems to suggest we need to play the ball more.

 

[rtr90]

Looks to me like we are always trying to run in phase with receiver whereas LSU and others take more chances and have ton more INTs

If some one has stats on how many INTs LSU has in comparison for last 15 years .. that would be cool

 

[BamaMoon]

Looks to me like we are always trying to run in phase with receiver whereas LSU and others take more chances and have ton more INTs

If some one has stats on how many INTs LSU has in comparison for last 15 years .. that would be cool

No stats from me, but the "memory" of a few of our teams from a few years ago that had a lot more INTs than the last couple of years.

Maybe it took corners like Dre Kirkpatrick OR Kareem Jackson to play CNS's kind of ball and "stay in phase" so they could then go find the ball, but it's clear something has changed.

Either the quality of DB's, the way they are now coached, or the way DPI is being called, but whatever the case we are not getting the amount of INTs we used to get.

I can't remember the year, but one year we averaged roughly one NOT a game. Again, something has changed.

 

[gtgilbert]

I've not watched UGA enough to know but is Kirby still running Saban's D or has he modified it over the years? I suspect it's the latter, meaning the basic D might be similar, but the tweaks have made it more effective.

BowlCut is obviously a great defensive mind, so there's little chance (in my mind) that Kirby hasn't modified the D considerably. The Venn diagram of the two defenses would certainly have a ton of overlap but the parts that differ may be considerable.

Not suggesting this isn't a Gol*ing issue, in fact, I think the progression Bama lacks wrt stopping modern defenses is due to Gol*ing. Offenses have changed a lot since BowlCut left for UGA.

Sure Kirby has made some tweaks, but it's not like we are running the 3-4 over/under just like we were when Saban brought it in - in fact we almost never do. Kirby made tweaks when he was here; Pruitt made some adjustments; so has Golding. It was Kirby who brought on the 'rabbits' package (2DL and 2 OLB) and I'm pretty sure it was Pruitt who introduced what we now call Cheetah (1 DL with 4 LBs even though his version was 2OLB and 2ILB instead of the 3OLB group we have now) - he ran it with Jon Allen in the playoffs and we were still using Rashaan Evans as an OLB/Hybrid. Those things worked really well when used the right ways at the right times and still could. Saban has always allowed changes to adjust to how the game has changed.

Here's what Golding has tweaked:

using the 2-4 as our base over the 3-3 and not getting back into the 3-3 when teams are being successful running at us due to that groupings lack of size.

as part of the 2-4, shifting the best speed/edge rusher in the game down INSIDE over the OG on a lot of plays like he's a D Tackle. Other times he's at the inside eye of the OT, still not where he can use his best attributes.

Flexing the second best speed/edge rusher in the game out into pass coverage, so we can rush a somewhat undersized ILB up the middle against an OG or OC instead.

Changing up our edge responsibilities to where the guy at the end of the LOS takes an INSIDE gap and expecting the ILB or S to come over or down into that run fit, again when we have two of the best EDGE defenders in the game on the field for us, but are lining them up in ways where they can't set the edge.

This I can't prove, but I think where Kirby has simplified some things, Golding has actually added more complexity. Does anyone remember how lost and slow to react Mack Wilson looked as the Mike when getting plays in from Golding in 2018? Then in the NFL the next year looked like a completely different player?

 

[mlh]

Either the quality of DB's, the way they are now coached, or the way DPI is being called, but whatever the case we are not getting the amount of INTs we used to get.

It's virtually impossible to make an INT if you don't know where the ball is.

 

[CB4]

Sure Kirby has made some tweaks, but it's not like we are running the 3-4 over/under just like we were when Saban brought it in - in fact we almost never do. Kirby made tweaks when he was here; Pruitt made some adjustments; so has Golding. It was Kirby who brought on the 'rabbits' package (2DL and 2 OLB) and I'm pretty sure it was Pruitt who introduced what we now call Cheetah (1 DL with 4 LBs even though his version was 2OLB and 2ILB instead of the 3OLB group we have now) - he ran it with Jon Allen in the playoffs and we were still using Rashaan Evans as an OLB/Hybrid. Those things worked really well when used the right ways at the right times and still could. Saban has always allowed changes to adjust to how the game has changed.

Here's what Golding has tweaked:

using the 2-4 as our base over the 3-3 and not getting back into the 3-3 when teams are being successful running at us due to that groupings lack of size.

as part of the 2-4, shifting the best speed/edge rusher in the game down INSIDE over the OG on a lot of plays like he's a D Tackle. Other times he's at the inside eye of the OT, still not where he can use his best attributes.

Flexing the second best speed/edge rusher in the game out into pass coverage, so we can rush a somewhat undersized ILB up the middle against an OG or OC instead.

Changing up our edge responsibilities to where the guy at the end of the LOS takes an INSIDE gap and expecting the ILB or S to come over or down into that run fit, again when we have two of the best EDGE defenders in the game on the field for us, but are lining them up in ways where they can't set the edge.

This I can't prove, but I think where Kirby has simplified some things, Golding has actually added more complexity. Does anyone remember how lost and slow to react Mack Wilson looked as the Mike when getting plays in from Golding in 2018? Then in the NFL the next year looked like a completely different player?

This is pretty much where I am. There is much to be said about simplicity. It gets players more in a read and react mode instead of read-think-react position.
This is a basketball analogy but it holds I believe. I had a group of 11-12 year olds I was coaching. I tried to implement a couple of zone/zone trap defenses with them as our base. And we played awful. I decided to get simple. We’ll play man to man on defense and mix in a few simple plays on offense.
Low and behold, the kids started playing better, gained more confidence in what they were doing and started having fun. They trusted what they were doing, had confidence in being able to do it, and results followed.
Sometimes you can be too smart for your own good.

 

[CrimsonBloodn62]

It's virtually impossible to make an INT if you don't know where the ball is.

Sort of like the old saying in baseball you can’t hit what you can’t see.

 

[editder]

There's a lot of talk about the D being outdated, but realistically we are NOT running the same defense Saban brought when he started. The groupings have changed, the position profiles have changed, the way the front 6-7 play is very different - it's really not even close other that some of the secondary concepts and pattern matching. Certainly nothing in the game drastically changed after the 2017 season, prior to which our worst defense was 6th, to now not even being in the top 20 - right now we are at 18PPG, which would be Goldings best ever so a little improvement but still worse than all but 1 prior D. If this is truly "Sabans Defense", Smart and Pruitt dang sure knew how to make the right calls in the context of the overall Defense from Saban, where Golding doesn't appear able to do so.

for the record, that 2018 defense which dropped from #1 down to #12 wasn't short on talent. EVERY single starter from that defense is on an NFL roster. except for Dylan Moses, and the only reason he isn't is because of the knee injury. In 2018 he led the team in tackles and was just waiting to be a first round pick till the knee went south. We're talking mack Wilson, Trevon Diggs, S Smith, Surtain II, X McKinney, Deionte Thompson, I Buggs, Quinnen Williams, Raekwon Davis, A Jennings etc. The talent was MORE than there to be successful, yet the end result really wasn't.

The problem definitely started in 2018. Most of it was probably because of Gol*ing, but I think some of it was because we went totally pass-happy on offense, abandoning the running game almost completely.

I never had higher expectations for Bama football than I did going into the 2018 season after seeing that performance in the second half of the 2017 NC game. If they had just continued to do most of what they were doing in 2017 (run-first offense, stout defense, physicality everywhere but especially on both lines), but with the added ability to pass at will, no one could have stopped them. Instead, they put way too much of the responsibility for success on one guy. When he struggled because of injuries or because other teams figured out our tendencies, we had nothing to fall back on; the finesse offense made the team soft.

 

[BamaMoon]

It's virtually impossible to make an INT if you don't know where the ball is.

In fairness to what CNS teaches (as I understand it) if you are "in phase" he teaches you find the ball when the receiver's eyes look for the ball. On the other hand, if you are out of phase you play their eyes and you try to time breaking up the reception.

So, technically they are supposed to look for the ball but it's only when they are in phase. Since we don't see them looking for the ball much, that seems to suggests they know they are not in position.

So I guess the beef we have with CNS's technique is it seems he teaches something the kids are struggling to do on a regular basis.

 

[CoolBreeze]

I've got a hundred bucks in my piggy bank that I will give away to anyone if Goldylocks is not retained. And I am cheap man.

 

[CoachJeff]

The problem definitely started in 2018. Most of it was probably because of Gol*ing, but I think some of it was because we went totally pass-happy on offense, abandoning the running game almost completely.

I never had higher expectations for Bama football than I did going into the 2018 season after seeing that performance in the second half of the 2017 NC game. If they had just continued to do most of what they were doing in 2017 (run-first offense, stout defense, physicality everywhere but especially on both lines), but with the added ability to pass at will, no one could have stopped them. Instead, they put way too much of the responsibility for success on one guy. When he struggled because of injuries or because other teams figured out our tendencies, we had nothing to fall back on; the finesse offense made the team soft.

Bama in 2018 was not nearly as pass happy as you seem to remember. The team attempted 29 passes a game that year, the same amount per game as the 2015 team. Bama ran it 38 times a game in 2018 and 42 in 2015. The 2018 passing attack was as efficient as college football has ever seen.

Now, Bama certainly has become too pass happy under BoB. Bama has averaged 34 and 38 passing attempts per game over the last past two years.

 

[NoNC4Tubs]

They would let that slide on an Auburn site. Probably not ”no” the difference.

Would have been "ur"...