Citino 1943

[Tidewater]

Robert Citino is a very accomplished military historian, who focuses on Germany in the Second World War.
Here he talks about the year 1943.

Germans with any sense knew the war was lost, but fought on anyway.
Worth a listen. and, it's free!
Talking about the Germans in the wake of the First World War, Citino says my favorite line: "We (the Germans) didn't really lose that war (WW I), and we're gonna prove it this time by getting DESTROYED (in the Second World War)." There was no doubting that Germany lost in the Second World War.
US Army Heritage and Educational Center is, I think, on Fort Belvoir, in the Mos Eisley metro area.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

William Shirer wrote a fascinating diary, written in real time between 1934 and 1941, while he was stationed in Berlin as a wire service correspondent — AP, UPI, I’m not sure which.

Fittingly enough, he called it, Berlin Diary.

It’s fascinating for a lot of reasons, just one of which is because it documents the evolution of his own thoughts about Germany and Germans. 500 page story short, there’s something to the concept of “national character.” We’ve lost a bit of the recognition of that in the wake of avoiding the other name for national character…”stereotypes.”

Why like Oliver Wendell Holmes we can’t acknowledge the validity of a general observation, while recognizing the superiority of a specific fact, I don’t know. But that’s another topic for another thread.

Regardless, along the way it’s interesting to note that Shirer makes some observations and / or predictions that turn out to be wrong in the end….and a lot of others that are spot on. The inconsistency doesn’t devalue his narrative. Rather, it shows just how hard it is to predict the future when you don’t already know how it turns out.

Side Note: Anybody who’s been humiliated in a blind wine tasting (**blush**) knows how that feels.

Highly recommended on any number of levels.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

William Shirer wrote a fascinating diary, written in real time between 1934 and 1941, while he was stationed in Berlin as a wire service correspondent — AP, UPI, I’m not sure which.

Fittingly enough, he called it, Berlin Diary.

It’s fascinating for a lot of reasons, just one of which is because it documents the evolution of his own thoughts about Germany and Germans. 500 page story short, there’s something to the concept of “national character.” We’ve lost a bit of the recognition of that in the wake of avoiding the other name for national character…”stereotypes.”

Why we can’t acknowledge the general applicability of a general observation, while recognizing the superiority of a specific fact, I don’t know. But that’s another topic for another thread.

Regardless, along the way it’s interesting to note that Shirer makes some observations and / or predictions that turn out to be wrong in the end….and a lot of others that are spot on. The inconsistency doesn’t devalue his narrative. Rather, it shows just how hard it is to predict the future when you don’t already know how it turns out.

Side Note: Anybody who’s been humiliated in a blind wine tasting (**blush**) knows how that feels.

Highly recommended on any number of levels.

He wrote several. I read that one and also "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." They were both good. The others were, I heard, a bit repetitive....

 

[4Q Basket Case]

He wrote several. I read that one and also "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." They were both good. The others were, I heard, a bit repetitive....

I have a copy of RAFOTTR, and have started it several times. It’s a slog, 1,000+ pages over two volumes, and I have to confess I haven’t finished it.

How did you think Berlin Diary compared to Rise and Fall?

 

[Tidewater]

I stand corrected. USAHEC is at Carlisle Barracks, in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
I think they may have reflagged the Military History Institute as USAHEC.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I have a copy of RAFOTTR, and have started it several times. It’s a slog, 1,000+ pages over two volumes, and I have to confess I haven’t finished it.

How did you think Berlin Diary compared to Rise and Fall?

I enjoyed them both. You're correct that the detail in the latter gets in the way some. I sat it down and picked it up several times...

 

[Tidewater]

Citino, in the Q&A, was asked about the German officers' oaths to Hitler personally, and how that made them fight beyond the point at which they knew that Germany had lost.
Citino pointed out that they also took and oath to the Weimar Republic which they did not seem to be too worried about violating. They also took and oath to tell the truth at the Nuremburg trials, and many of them perjured themselves, so they did not seem to be too hung up on that oath.
Finally, the July 1944 plotters seemed more loyal to Germany than to Hitler, which appears reasonable.

I guess humans are flawed, sometimes tragic, creatures.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Citino, in the Q&A, was asked about the German officers' oaths to Hitler personally, and how that made them fight beyond the point at which they knew that Germany had lost.
Citino pointed out that they also took and oath to the Weimar Republic which they did not seem to be too worried about violating. They also took and oath to tell the truth at the Nuremburg trials, and many of them perjured themselves, so they did not seem to be too hung up on that oath.
Finally, the July 1944 plotters seemed more loyal to Germany than to Hitler, which appears reasonable.

I guess humans are flawed, sometimes tragic, creatures.

I've wondered for a long time if we did the right thing in basically turning the Germans and Japanese into pacifists. I wondered if the day might come when we would need them fighting on the side of the good guys. The thinking in 1945 was that they couldn't be trusted - period...

 

[JDCrimson]

What I don't understand is if we can turn the Germans, Japanese, and the Italians into pacifists, why can't turn the Russians that way? It's long over due. The money we waste as a country is primarily to counteract their machinations across the globe...

The only way we realistically deal with our debt situation is to neuter Russia as an international disruptor.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

What I don't understand is if we can turn the Germans, Japanese, and the Italians into pacifists, why can't turn the Russians that way? It's long over due. The money we waste as a country is primarily to counteract their machinations across the globe...

The only way we realistically deal with our debt situation is to neuter Russia as an international disruptor.

We basically ground both countries under our heels and essentially dictated their initial constitutions, with some input from them. We were never in a position to do that with Russia...

 

[Tidewater]

I've wondered for a long time if we did the right thing in basically turning the Germans and Japanese into pacifists. I wondered if the day might come when we would need them fighting on the side of the good guys. The thinking in 1945 was that they couldn't be trusted - period...

You are probably right. Having beaten the Jerries twice in world wars, both times narrowly and at great cost, I guess it is hard to critique the thinking of the Allies in 1945.
Nowadays, the Bundeswehr is capable, but small. Individually, the Germans I work with are good guys, and they have said the right things to me about their respect for human rights and the tenets of Just War Theory.
The problem, I think, is that German society does not want a capable military.
There are more soldiers stationed at Fort Bragg (if you include reservists whose units are housed there) than there are in the entire German army. (Das Heer).
The Germans indulged deeply in the post-Cold War "peace dividend."