Teaching about Thanksgiving

[Tidewater]

I read this and was disappointed about the attitudes some teachers adopted.

‘I Was Teaching a Lot of Misconceptions.’ The Way American Kids Are Learning About the 'First Thanksgiving' Is Changing
I don't know, maybe what pre-school students come away from such traditional Thanksgiving observances as "dressing up their kids in [Pilgrim and indige] costumes” or drawing a turkey by tracing the outline of their hand on a piece of paper is in the first instance, that working with people of other cultures is okay, and learning that being from a different culture is neither bad nor threatening per se and (in the second) that even artists with the limited talent of a pre-schooler can make a form of art if they use their imaginations, so do not be afraid to try. Neither of those strike me as bad learning objectives for pre-school and elementary school students. Plus, teaching some pious gratitude to God or Gaia the Earthmother for the bounty we have wouldn't be far amiss.

We can get to the conflicts between indigenous peoples and immigrants later in the students' education, like the Easter Massacre, when Powhatans tried to murder every single English immigrant in the spring of 1622. (They only got about 1/3 including women and children, but the remaining 2/3s were pretty angry about it).

My beef with the traditional Thanksgiving is that the first one was not in Massachusetts in 1622 but in Virginia in 1619, not that that changes the story much for pre-schoolers and elementary students. The First Thanksgiving Took Place in Virginia, not Massachusetts

The busybodies who feel compelled to teach preschoolers about indigenous genocide and the evils of cultural appropriation would do better keeping their pitches age-appropriate. Remembering the first Thanksgiving is not a celebration of genocide, nor is the "cultural appropriation" of trying to dress like indige a form of theft. In fact, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Go Bama]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

Wow! I had no idea.

But hey, if they didn’t have a turkey and Indians ...

 

[Chukker Veteran]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

At their heights, my understanding is that the native culture that produced the ceremonial mounds spread across the country (Cahokia, Mounville, etc...) were at the time the most advanced civilization globally. The capital city at cohokia was the largest city in the world at the time, if I remember correctly.

So when it's post-cocktail hour and I'm in the mood to speculate about things, I wonder how history would be different if the natives from this continent had decided to colonize Europe instead of the other way around.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

At their heights, my understanding is that the native culture that produced the ceremonial mounds spread across the country (Cahokia, Mounville, etc...) were at the time the most advanced civilization globally. The capital city at cohokia was the largest city in the world at the time, if I remember correctly.

So when it's post-cocktail hour and I'm in the mood to speculate about things, I wonder how history would be different if the natives from this continent had decided to colonize Europe instead of the other way around.

There's a good chance Harry Turtledove has written that alternative history.

 

[Chukker Veteran]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

There's a good chance Harry Turtledove has written that alternative history.

I had to google Harry cause I'd never heard of him, but you are right.

Could Harry Turtledove be BamainBoston's pen name? Sounds like stuff he would write after he ran out of ghostbusting stories.

 

[rgw]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

Wasn't Thanksgiving not even a holiday until the Civil War era? Mostly was just a form of propaganda by the union to uplift spirits mid-war?

 

[rgw]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

At their heights, my understanding is that the native culture that produced the ceremonial mounds spread across the country (Cahokia, Mounville, etc...) were at the time the most advanced civilization globally. The capital city at cohokia was the largest city in the world at the time, if I remember correctly.

So when it's post-cocktail hour and I'm in the mood to speculate about things, I wonder how history would be different if the natives from this continent had decided to colonize Europe instead of the other way around.

The South American native nations were far more advanced technologically and in terms government organization (I guess that would be the best term for it) by what I know about history. They were not as technologically advanced as the Europeans which is a big reason why they were relatively easily conquered by the Spanish but they did have stone highways, large cities, and a fair measure of scientific understanding. Hardly barbarian. I'll be frank, I don't know near enough about the North American native history pre-colonization.

 

[Crimson1967]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

I had to google Harry cause I'd never heard of him, but you are right.

Could Harry Turtledove be BamainBoston's pen name? Sounds like stuff he would write after he ran out of ghostbusting stories.

Harry is not a Trump fan.

I have read a lot of his stuff. I would recommend Guns of the South as an entry point to his work if you like alternative history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tidewater]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

Wasn't Thanksgiving not even a holiday until the Civil War era? Mostly was just a form of propaganda by the union to uplift spirits mid-war?

The first article talks about that.
It was a nineteenth century holiday before the Late Unpleasantness. As in many other things, New Englanders saw that New England = America (New England did everything first and everyone should celebrate whatever New Englanders did)
Also, I would say that holidays were different in the nineteenth century than today. For example, many people did not took Christmas Day off. And I would imagine that a harvest feast is a mainstay of almost every society in which most people are farmers.

 

[Chukker Veteran]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

The South American native nations were far more advanced technologically and in terms government organization (I guess that would be the best term for it) by what I know about history. They were not as technologically advanced as the Europeans which is a big reason why they were relatively easily conquered by the Spanish but they did have stone highways, large cities, and a fair measure of scientific understanding. Hardly barbarian. I'll be frank, I don't know near enough about the North American native history pre-colonization.

There is speculation that links the moundbuilding activity in North America with the moundbuilders you mention in Central and Southern America. Many similar artifacts found at the northern and southern sites as well as trade goods from distant places found in each place. I think they were interconnected.

I used to hunt relics, and once found an exotic lizard effigy made from kaolin (which originates in Ohio & that area.) I found it near a mound in north Alabama. It was a valued item traded from tribes to the north. I wonder what they got in return when they went back home.

 

[Tidewater]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

The South American native nations were far more advanced technologically and in terms government organization (I guess that would be the best term for it) by what I know about history. They were not as technologically advanced as the Europeans which is a big reason why they were relatively easily conquered by the Spanish but they did have stone highways, large cities, and a fair measure of scientific understanding. Hardly barbarian. I'll be frank, I don't know near enough about the North American native history pre-colonization.

On the other hand, no Western Hemipshere indigenous society had invented the wheel (no draft animals until Columbus). Most had no form of writing (which limits societal history to that which bards can memorize). And, lest we romanticize the indige, here is a quote from a Rev. Hubbard, an English cleric who fought alongside Mohegans against the Wampanoag in what is now Massachusetts in 1675:

"In the first place therefore making a great circle they (the Englishmen’s Mohegan allies) placed him (captured Wampanoag warrior) in the middle that all their eyes might at the same time be pleased with the utmost revenge upon him. They first cut one of his fingers round in the joint at the trunk of his hand, with a sharp knife and then brake it off, as men do with a slaughtered beast before they uncase him; then they cut off another and another till they had dismembered one hand of all its digits, the blood sometimes spurting out in streams a yard from his hand, which barbarous and unheard of cruelty the English were not able to bear, it forcing tears from their eyes, yet did not the sufferer ever relent or show any sign of anguish, for being asked by some of his tormentors how he liked the war . . . this unsensible and hard-hearted monster answered, he liked it very well and found it as sweet as Englishmen did their sugar. In this frame he continued until his executioners had dealt with the toes of his feet as they had done with the fingers of his hands, all the while making him dance round the circle and sing, till he wearied both himself and them. At last they brake the bones of his legs, afterwards he was forced to sit down which 'tis said he silently did, till they knocked out his brains.”

(Rev. William Hubbard, The History of the Indian Wars in New England, vol. II, pg. 64)

The English did not teach the Mohegans this treatment of captive enemy warriors. The English were appalled by this behavior.
:

 

[Tidewater]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

There is speculation that links the moundbuilding activity in North America with the moundbuilders you mention in Central and Southern America. Many similar artifacts found at the northern and southern sites as well as trade goods from distant places found in each place. I think they were interconnected.

I used to hunt relics, and once found an exotic lizard effigy made from kaolin (which originates in Ohio & that area.) I found it near a mound in north Alabama. It was a valued item traded from tribes to the north. I wonder what they got in return when they went back home.

I think archaeological evidence shows lots of pre-Columbus trading amongst the natives from north to south and east to west. They had excellent rivers (like the Tennessee and Mississippi) to carry items around.

 

[Chukker Veteran]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

I think archaeological evidence shows lots of pre-Columbus trading amongst the natives from north to south and east to west. They had excellent rivers (like the Tennessee and Mississippi) to carry items around.

I think the trade network extended into Central and Southern America. There are too many similarities between the distant sites and artifacts found there to be coincidence, in my opinion.

I believe I saw a report that showed some written records in Central America of one fashion or another. A fairly recent discovery that gave insight into the culture and ceremonies. I may be mis-remembering an article I read casually a while back, but I do think I'm right. The pictures or images on pottery seen at all sites are also sometimes interpreted as a written record of a sort.

 

[Chukker Veteran]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

And, lest we romanticize the indige, here is a quote from a Rev. Hubbard, an English cleric who fought alongside Mohegans against the Wampanoag in what is now Massachusetts in 1675:

(Rev. William Hubbard, The History of the Indian Wars in New England, vol. II, pg. 64)

The English did not teach the Mohegans this treatment of captive enemy warriors. The English were appalled by this behavior.
:

The Moundbuilders everywhere took a backseat to nobody when it came to blood lust. Mass executions and sacrifices and such.

 

[TexasBama]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

At their heights, my understanding is that the native culture that produced the ceremonial mounds spread across the country (Cahokia, Mounville, etc...) were at the time the most advanced civilization globally. The capital city at cohokia was the largest city in the world at the time, if I remember correctly.

So when it's post-cocktail hour and I'm in the mood to speculate about things, I wonder how history would be different if the natives from this continent had decided to colonize Europe instead of the other way around.

 

[Tidewater]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

I think the trade network extended into Central and Southern America. There are too many similarities between the distant sites and artifacts found there to be coincidence, in my opinion.

I believe I saw a report that showed some written records in Central America of one fashion or another. A fairly recent discovery that gave insight into the culture and ceremonies. I may be mis-remembering an article I read casually a while back, but I do think I'm right. The pictures or images on pottery seen at all sites are also sometimes interpreted as a written record of a sort.

Mayans and Aztecs had a pictogram written language. Incas had a sort of written language as well.
These seem to have been the exceptions, however.

 

[92tide]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

The South American native nations were far more advanced technologically and in terms government organization (I guess that would be the best term for it) by what I know about history. They were not as technologically advanced as the Europeans which is a big reason why they were relatively easily conquered by the Spanish but they did have stone highways, large cities, and a fair measure of scientific understanding. Hardly barbarian. I'll be frank, I don't know near enough about the North American native history pre-colonization.

to be fair, the south american native nations had a lot of help from the aliens.

speaking of frank

 

[TexasBama]

Re: Teacthing about Thanksgiving

to be fair, the south american native nations had a lot of help from the aliens.

speaking of frank

They get a pass because they weren’t dissing the commonwealth