Fox News is learning the hard way that their viewers never wanted the truth

[TIDE-HSV]

there are 70 million people willing to support white supremacy.

i know what those people believe, but they are hopelessly naïve. republicans have not been fiscally responsible, they have not enacted policies that have led to fewer abortions and the democrats have not taken people's guns away. they have continually screwed up everything they have touched since at least george w and have left our country on the verge of ruin.

lots of them are victims of decades of non-stop propaganda. like the saying goes, you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

i think the democrats best strategy is to un-apologetically run on what they stand for (yes the messaging can be better) and somehow figure out how to get voters out in mid-terms and in local/state elections. if dems show up in numbers in 2010 and 2014, we aren't having these discussions right now.

Thank you for quoting and making me remember my dad...

 

[Go Bama]

I believe with all of my heart that there are tens of millions of racists in America - people who truly look down their noses at other races. But no where near 70 million.

But, to your question, only the most brazen racist is willing to admit to himself, much less others, that he is racist. I personally know a few hard core racists who are insulted when I call out their bigotry. They do not believe that they are racists. Everyone knows but them.

My point, which I failed miserably to make, is that the people who voted for Trump do not see him as a racist. The only people who see him as racist and voted for him anyway are the extreme right.

Totally agree - hard to stomach, especially since so many were minorities. So, why were even minorities willing to support a clearly racist president?

 

[B1GTide]

My point, which I failed miserably to make, is that the people who voted for Trump do not see him as a racist. The only people who see him as racist and voted for him anyway are the extreme right.

There are articles out there quoting minorities who said that they voted for trump even though they knew that he was a racist. Maybe they are among the far right. But I found that very strange.

 

[Go Bama]

i think it was mentioned up thread. no matter what the dems do, they are going to be labelled as socialist, baby-killers, gun-takers.

You are probably right. The optometrist in me wants to think I can reason with about half of those 70 million.

 

[chanson78]

70 million people voted for Trump because the Democrats do not have a satisfactory answer for any of the above. These are not evil people; they are very definitely uninformed people.

I won't disagree that Democrats are terrible at messaging. I am terrified of the cache the The Lincoln Project has with moderates from both parties and how effective their messaging will be when there is a Republican candidate that isn't Trump.

All that being said, how do you educate people who take pride in not believing sources of information that aren't part of their confirmation bias?

I think that we are essentially saying the same thing. My concern is that essentially means that Democrats are spotting any Republican candidate ~70M votes every presidential election. Because it is way easier to get people to vote against the party of socialism, baby murderin, and gun stealing. It wasn't until the fear of 4 more years of Trump that Democrats turned out in large numbers.

I am not advocating that the Democrats start fear mongering too, or rather any more than they already do. I just think that the fear mongering of the Republicans is much more effective than that of the Democrats. Someone murdering a baby right now is scarier than storms wiping us off the planet in 200 years. Someone coming to take your guns Jan 20th is much scarier than the possibility of the Supreme Court setting back minority rights in 10 years. Someone telling you that you can't pray to your invisible sky being Jan 20th is much scarier than millennials never being able to pay off college loans which in turn will have troublesome effects on the economy in 25 years.

 

[chanson78]

You are probably right. The optometrist in me wants to think I can reason with about half of those 70 million.

Yeah but which one is better? Option a, or b?

 

[chanson78]

There are articles out there quoting minorities who said that they voted for trump even though they knew that he was a racist. Maybe they are among the far right. But I found that very strange.

I think a lot of this has to do with the concept of pulling up the rope after you've made it. "I got mine, you get yours." Mentality.

Many people realize that affluence is the greatest equalizer. If you have money civil rights aren't all that important. Or at least the impact of civil rights on your day to day life. The same goes for a woman's right to choose, immigration, work place equality or <insert thing that disproportionately affects minorities>.

Unfortunately once they have climbed the ladder, or were born 5, 50, 100 rungs up on that ladder, their answer is invariably. "Why are you so lazy? Its like you want to be poor."

 

[B1GTide]

I think a lot of this has to do with the concept of pulling up the rope after you've made it. "I got mine, you get yours." Mentality.

Many people realize that affluence is the greatest equalizer. If you have money civil rights aren't all that important. Or at least the impact of civil rights on your day to day life. The same goes for a woman's right to choose, immigration, work place equality or <insert thing that disproportionately affects minorities>.

Unfortunately once they have climbed the ladder, or were born 5, 50, 100 rungs up on that ladder, their answer is invariably. "Why are you so lazy? Its like you want to be poor."

I agree with you. Just a sad story all the way around.

 

[chanson78]

lots of them are victims of decades of non-stop propaganda. like the saying goes, you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I'd never heard this before. I have a feeling before Jan 20 I am going to wear it out. Thanks.

 

[CharminTide]

I am not advocating that the Democrats start fear mongering too, or rather any more than they already do. I just think that the fear mongering of the Republicans is much more effective than that of the Democrats. Someone murdering a baby right now is scarier than storms wiping us off the planet in 200 years. Someone coming to take your guns Jan 20th is much scarier than the possibility of the Supreme Court setting back minority rights in 10 years. Someone telling you that you can't pray to your invisible sky being Jan 20th is much scarier than millennials never being able to pay off college loans which in turn will have troublesome effects on the economy in 25 years.

I think the GOP's biggest messaging advantage is that they've managed to monopolize white Christians as a political group, and they can activate 50 million voters by casting Power Word: Abortion. The Democrats have a much more diverse coalition with much more diverse interests, can you can't activate them all through a single message.

That said, Democrats have essentially let that happen by ceding broad territories to the Republican party: religion, patriotism, and the economy. If they want to fracture some of the unified GOP support, they need to get the Buttigiegs of the party talking about abortion, the Duckworths talking about patriotism, and Biden reminding the country that he's having to clean up the GOP's economic mistakes for the second time.

 

[Go Bama]

I won't disagree that Democrats are terrible at messaging. I am terrified of the cache the The Lincoln Project has with moderates from both parties and how effective their messaging will be when there is a Republican candidate that isn't Trump.

All that being said, how do you educate people who take pride in not believing sources of information that aren't part of their confirmation bias?

I think that we are essentially saying the same thing. My concern is that essentially means that Democrats are spotting any Republican candidate ~70M votes every presidential election. Because it is way easier to get people to vote against the party of socialism, baby murderin, and gun stealing. It wasn't until the fear of 4 more years of Trump that Democrats turned out in large numbers.

I am not advocating that the Democrats start fear mongering too, or rather any more than they already do. I just think that the fear mongering of the Republicans is much more effective than that of the Democrats. Someone murdering a baby right now is scarier than storms wiping us off the planet in 200 years. Someone coming to take your guns Jan 20th is much scarier than the possibility of the Supreme Court setting back minority rights in 10 years. Someone telling you that you can't pray to your invisible sky being Jan 20th is much scarier than millennials never being able to pay off college loans which in turn will have troublesome effects on the economy in 25 years.

Somebody has got to take a step toward meeting the other party half way. The Moscow Mitches and Donald Trump's of the world are to worst possible people to have in office because it's their way or nothing. They are bullies that are incapable of compromise.

I think the magazine restriction is a good step on guns. A few of the Trumper's I've discussed this with have said they would be willing to accept this.

The abortion numbers are actually going down. It will be impossible to convince someone that sees this as baby killing to compromise so I suggest educating these people on how to minimize the number of abortions, legal and illegal, that occur. This is a tough nut to crack.

Get rid of the "defund the police" lingo and start talking about police reform. Others here are much better versed than I am, but they talk about relieving police of dealing with mental illness and domestic issues. Talk about police reform rather than defunding the police.

Personally, I think most people are fundamentally good and want to do the right thing. So many are just so misinformed.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I'd never heard this before. I have a feeling before Jan 20 I am going to wear it out. Thanks.

A while back, I posted that it was one of my dad's favorite expressions. He didn't like to argue. I think 92 picked it up from there...

 

[B1GTide]

So many are just so misinformed.

But it is a type of "misinformed" that cannot be defeated with information. How do you inform the willfully ignorant?

The Lincoln Project fought fire with fire. They attacked, and made it personal. To beat the GOP at their game, the democrats need to be willing to climb into the mud. They need to be willing to start their own conspiracy theories. They need to be willing to try to reprogram these people with their own disinformation.

Forget deprogramming - just reprogram. Leverage their stupidity to feed them a different flavor of slop.

The democrats will not win if they try to play fair or claim the moral high ground. Wars are won by the side willing to go the furthest. So far, it isn't close. The GOP is willing to go much further than the DNC.

 

[81usaf92]

I think the GOP's biggest messaging advantage is that they've managed to monopolize white Christians as a political group, and they can activate 50 million voters by casting Power Word: Abortion. The Democrats have a much more diverse coalition with much more diverse interests, can you can't activate them all through a single message.

That said, Democrats have essentially let that happen by ceding broad territories to the Republican party: religion, patriotism, and the economy. If they want to fracture some of the unified GOP support, they need to get the Buttigiegs of the party talking about abortion, the Duckworths talking about patriotism, and Biden reminding the country that he's having to clean up the GOP's economic mistakes for the second time.

They also need to put a muzzle on their more extreme parts of the party.

 

[TexasBama]

But it is a type of "misinformed" that cannot be defeated with information. How do you inform the willfully ignorant?

 

[92tide]

I think the GOP's biggest messaging advantage is that they've managed to monopolize white Christians as a political group, and they can activate 50 million voters by casting Power Word: Abortion. The Democrats have a much more diverse coalition with much more diverse interests, can you can't activate them all through a single message.

That said, Democrats have essentially let that happen by ceding broad territories to the Republican party: religion, patriotism, and the economy. If they want to fracture some of the unified GOP support, they need to get the Buttigiegs of the party talking about abortion, the Duckworths talking about patriotism, and Biden reminding the country that he's having to clean up the GOP's economic mistakes for the second time.

i think they should frame abortion as a concept of liberty and freedom for women. but a lot of the people who talk at length about liberty and freedom would lose their damned minds over that. so realistically, that would never work

 

[92tide]

A while back, I posted that it was one of my dad's favorite expressions. He didn't like to argue. I think 92 picked it up from there...

i had seen it a few places in the past, but had all but forgotten it until i saw you mention it

 

[TexasBama]

They also need to put a muzzle on their more extreme parts of the party.

It doesn’t seem to cause the republicans problems.

 

[TexasBama]

the republicans don't actually stand for anything except white, "christian" rule. they spend all of their effort and time spewing propaganda to demonize democrats, and even "rinos". it was part of gingrich's "strategy"

and it works because there are so many folks who just don't care about anything other than white supremacy when it comes down to it. and the puke funnel gives those folks an almost infinite number of "excuses" to keep voting that way without feeling any sort of guilt

looking forward to the new Texas Board of Education arguing over whether to teach the KJV or NIV in science class

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I'd never heard this before. I have a feeling before Jan 20 I am going to wear it out. Thanks.

Actually, dad's version was a little more poetic - "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"...