Milroe v Marino - The Football Gods are Unkind

[selmaborntidefan]

I’m biased to Jordan but I still think the GOAT tag is between him and Wilt.

They are the Top 2 PPG leaders in NBA history 1) MJ and 2) Wilt

They are both also considered Top 10-15 All-Time Defenders

Wilt is the #1 Rebounder All-Time

MJ is #4 in Total Steals and #2 in Steals per game and that’s a stat dominated by PG’s and not SG’s

So to me those two are best two Complete Players on both ends of the floor.

Dominate Scorers and Elite Defenders where Rebounds and especially Steals are kind of like INT’s and Pick 6s in FB because they lead to fast breaks and point swings and momentum changes.

The MVPs and NBA Titles are more or less Cherries on Top.

My problem has always been - and you may not be shocked when I say this if you've read a lot of my posts, particularly on the football board......is I question whether anyone can ever be called the GOAT, the closest title being the best of "his" time (or "her" if we're talking women's sports).

I think it is without question that from around 1987 until he retired in 1998, MJ was the best player in pro basketball except for the two years he sat out with his secret gambling suspension.

As for Wilt, I have no problem with your statement, but the peanut gallery is going to go "but Bill Russell" based on rings, too. But this comparison is the very reason I honestly elieve it's difficult to have a "GOAT," because Wilt and MJ both averaged 30.1 ppg over their careers - but Wilt didn't have the 3-point shot, either. How many more points would he have?

Just to pick a year at random: when Michael was 23, he averaged 37.1 ppg when teams averaged 109.9 while at the same age (his rookie year), Wilt averaged 37.6 ppg and the teams averaged 115.3 per game. It's a huge edge for Michael despite the lower total - because Wilt was a center and Michael was a guard, and Michael's ppg was a higher % of his team's points than Wilt (33.7 vs 32.6) plus Michael was a slightly higher percentage shooter.

How do we "really" assess it - and how do we allot for the 3-point shots, although Michael shot less an average of only 1.7 three-pointers per game over his career?

And where does Kareem fit into all of this?
He won the same number of rings as MJ, more MVPs, and his shooting percentage was 60 points higher.

I'm not exactly a hardcore NBA fan, but here's how I would see it:

1960-69 - Wilt
1970 - 80 - Kareem
1981 - 86 - Larry Bird
1987 - 98 - MJ23 (except 93-94, which was likely Hakeem)
1999 - 2008 - different players at different times, Shaq/Tim Duncan/Kobe/Garnett
2009 - 2018 - LeBron, maybe Curry a year or two in there
Currently - Dovic

I haven't watched an NBA game in years, and I may be wrong, but I just don't think we can have a "GOAT" because the sport changes.

Sure, Shohei Ohtani had a 50-50 season........after they changed the pickoff rule and made it easier to run up stolen base totals artificially. That right there is why nobody ever did it previously.

 

[CrimsonBloodn62]

My problem has always been - and you may not be shocked when I say this if you've read a lot of my posts, particularly on the football board......is I question whether anyone can ever be called the GOAT, the closest title being the best of "his" time (or "her" if we're talking women's sports).

I think it is without question that from around 1987 until he retired in 1998, MJ was the best player in pro basketball except for the two years he sat out with his secret gambling suspension.

As for Wilt, I have no problem with your statement, but the peanut gallery is going to go "but Bill Russell" based on rings, too. But this comparison is the very reason I honestly elieve it's difficult to have a "GOAT," because Wilt and MJ both averaged 30.1 ppg over their careers - but Wilt didn't have the 3-point shot, either. How many more points would he have?

Just to pick a year at random: when Michael was 23, he averaged 37.1 ppg when teams averaged 109.9 while at the same age (his rookie year), Wilt averaged 37.6 ppg and the teams averaged 115.3 per game. It's a huge edge for Michael despite the lower total - because Wilt was a center and Michael was a guard, and Michael's ppg was a higher % of his team's points than Wilt (33.7 vs 32.6) plus Michael was a slightly higher percentage shooter.

How do we "really" assess it - and how do we allot for the 3-point shots, although Michael shot less an average of only 1.7 three-pointers per game over his career?

And where does Kareem fit into all of this?
He won the same number of rings as MJ, more MVPs, and his shooting percentage was 60 points higher.

I'm not exactly a hardcore NBA fan, but here's how I would see it:

1960-69 - Wilt
1970 - 80 - Kareem
1981 - 86 - Larry Bird
1987 - 98 - MJ23 (except 93-94, which was likely Hakeem)
1999 - 2008 - different players at different times, Shaq/Tim Duncan/Kobe/Garnett
2009 - 2018 - LeBron, maybe Curry a year or two in there
Currently - Dovic

I haven't watched an NBA game in years, and I may be wrong, but I just don't think we can have a "GOAT" because the sport changes.

Sure, Shohei Ohtani had a 50-50 season........after they changed the pickoff rule and made it easier to run up stolen base totals artificially. That right there is why nobody ever did it previously.

I haven't watched an NBA game in years either, but from I hear, the thing LeBron is the "GOAT" at is flopping and whining to the refs. lol

 

[DzynKingRTR]

I haven't watched an NBA game in years either, but from I hear, the thing LeBron is the "GOAT" at is flopping and whining to the refs. lol

Whiney LeBron the flopper is not even in my top 5.

1. MJ
2. Bill Russell
3. Kobe
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Steph Curry
8. Shaq
9. Kareem

Then there is the group in no particular order of Barkley, David Robinson, Kevin Garrett, Tim Duncan, Dr.J, Moses Malone

 

[BhamToTexas]

Currently - Dovic

Is this Jokic or Doncic?

 

[tusks_n_raider]

Whiney LeBron the flopper is not even in my top 5.

1. MJ
2. Bill Russell
3. Kobe
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Steph Curry
8. Shaq
9. Kareem

Then there is the group in no particular order of Barkley, David Robinson, Kevin Garrett, Tim Duncan, Dr.J, Moses Malone

Solid List!

I watched a lot of Bird and Magic in the 80s too and they were both just ridiculous.

They were both obviously great scorers but man they also made some of the sickest passes/assists you’ve ever seen.

Kobe was as close to Jordan as possible. Same build, same work ethic, same skill sets.

MJ is still just on another planet though.

I was just watching a 3 min highlight clip of him beating players in the post.

They put Guards on him, Small Forwards, Power Forwards….

Didn’t matter.

He was ball faking and spinning and leaping and banking shots, layups, dunks, hitting fall away jumpers. Making other HOF’ers look just silly.

Top Comment was:

Michael Jordan was a PROBLEM

Top Reply:

Word

 

[davefrat]

This thread reminds me of my 16 year old and his buddies arguing about LeBron v Jordan and Mahomes v Brady.

I can often throw a monkey wrench into their discussion with something like, “Well, neither of them can hold a candle to Norm Van Brocklin”…which then forces them all to their phones to find out who the heck NVB was.

Then they all start crowing about his TD-INT ratio or completion percentage and a sit back and smile at having blown up their circular debate.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This thread reminds me of my 16 year old and his buddies arguing about LeBron v Jordan and Mahomes v Brady.

I can often throw a monkey wrench into their discussion with something like, “Well, neither of them can hold a candle to Norm Van Brocklin”…which then forces them all to their phones to find out who the heck NVB was.

Then they all start crowing about his TD-INT ratio or completion percentage and a sit back and smile at having blown up their circular debate.

Your point right here is why I stated what I did about "the GOAT."
In my opinion, there's no such thing as "the GOAT".

There is only the "greatest of his time" (or era).

Look at NASCAR as another example. Richard Petty was considered the GOAT "because he won 200 races!" Yes when NASCAR was far less formal and organized than it got and when there was much less national competition because it was a rural sport, Petty won a ton of races. But David Pearson won a much higher percentage of races, Earnhardt won just as many driver titles when competition was stiffer, and Jeff Gordon won 93 races (3rd all-time behind Petty and Pearson) and 4 titles in the toughest era of competition.

It IS true IN GENERAL that the quality of competition goes up as one progresses to a more modern time but that doesn't mean every single player now is better than they were (e.g. just because some guy is in the top ten in NBA scoring today doesn't automatically make him better than George Mikan).

Then there's the idiots who tell me Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher of all-time...........never even won a Cy Young as the best pitcher in one season but is somehow the greatest ever..........

 

[DzynKingRTR]

Your point right here is why I stated what I did about "the GOAT."
In my opinion, there's no such thing as "the GOAT".

There is only the "greatest of his time" (or era).

Look at NASCAR as another example. Richard Petty was considered the GOAT "because he won 200 races!" Yes when NASCAR was far less formal and organized than it got and when there was much less national competition because it was a rural sport, Petty won a ton of races. But David Pearson won a much higher percentage of races, Earnhardt won just as many driver titles when competition was stiffer, and Jeff Gordon won 93 races (3rd all-time behind Petty and Pearson) and 4 titles in the toughest era of competition.

It IS true IN GENERAL that the quality of competition goes up as one progresses to a more modern time but that doesn't mean every single player now is better than they were (e.g. just because some guy is in the top ten in NBA scoring today doesn't automatically make him better than George Mikan).

Then there's the idiots who tell me Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher of all-time...........never even won a Cy Young as the best pitcher in one season but is somehow the greatest ever..........

I agree with you on the GOAT conversation. There is only the greatest player of that era. It seems the rule makers always change the way the game is played to help certain players be even better.

The argument is sometimes could player X play in today's game or the past. Of course there is no way to actually know this.

The only thing I remember about Ryan was him beating the crap out of the guy that charged the mound after getting hit by Nolan's pitch.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I agree with you on the GOAT conversation. There is only the greatest player of that era. It seems the rule makers always change the way the game is played to help certain players be even better.

The argument is sometimes could player X play in today's game or the past. Of course there is no way to actually know this.

The only thing I remember about Ryan was him beating the crap out of the guy that charged the mound after getting hit by Nolan's pitch.

Bobby Bowden might well be AS GOOD A HEAD COACH as our two legends. No, it's not a hill I would die on nor would I argue it. But "six national championships" is the same kind of argument, particularly in Bryant's case when national titles were awarded prior to bowls, there were minimal to no scholarship limitations, and the games Alabama played were all-white.

It's crystal clear that in the time frame of 2003-2022, Nick Saban was BY FAR the greatest coach of that period. Bryant dominated, in particular, 1960-66 and 1971-81. Bowden did not show the same level of dominance over a shorter period of time (one could argue Paterno or Osborne), but it was an entirely different (transitional) time frame, too.

He didn't win as many championships, no.
But he also had more imposed limitations than Bryant, too.

 

[davefrat]

Your point right here is why I stated what I did about "the GOAT."
In my opinion, there's no such thing as "the GOAT".

There is only the "greatest of his time" (or era).

Look at NASCAR as another example. Richard Petty was considered the GOAT "because he won 200 races!" Yes when NASCAR was far less formal and organized than it got and when there was much less national competition because it was a rural sport, Petty won a ton of races. But David Pearson won a much higher percentage of races, Earnhardt won just as many driver titles when competition was stiffer, and Jeff Gordon won 93 races (3rd all-time behind Petty and Pearson) and 4 titles in the toughest era of competition.

It IS true IN GENERAL that the quality of competition goes up as one progresses to a more modern time but that doesn't mean every single player now is better than they were (e.g. just because some guy is in the top ten in NBA scoring today doesn't automatically make him better than George Mikan).

Then there's the idiots who tell me Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher of all-time...........never even won a Cy Young as the best pitcher in one season but is somehow the greatest ever..........

George Mikan is another one I throw in every so often just to mix things up.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

Your point right here is why I stated what I did about "the GOAT."
In my opinion, there's no such thing as "the GOAT".

There is only the "greatest of his time" (or era).

Look at NASCAR as another example. Richard Petty was considered the GOAT "because he won 200 races!" Yes when NASCAR was far less formal and organized than it got and when there was much less national competition because it was a rural sport, Petty won a ton of races. But David Pearson won a much higher percentage of races, Earnhardt won just as many driver titles when competition was stiffer, and Jeff Gordon won 93 races (3rd all-time behind Petty and Pearson) and 4 titles in the toughest era of competition.

It IS true IN GENERAL that the quality of competition goes up as one progresses to a more modern time but that doesn't mean every single player now is better than they were (e.g. just because some guy is in the top ten in NBA scoring today doesn't automatically make him better than George Mikan).

Then there's the idiots who tell me Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher of all-time...........never even won a Cy Young as the best pitcher in one season but is somehow the greatest ever..........

Nolan Ryan has a lot of longtime die hard fans and they are vocal.

I mean I like him too and I think he was awesome but not really close to being in a GOAT discussion.

He’s about 20-25th in All Time WAR last I checked and that sounds about right.

Best MLB Pitcher ever discussions come up every few months on Reddit and the usual candidates in no particular order are:

Tom Seaver
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro
Bob Gibson
Walter Johnson
Clemens

Maybe a few other names.

The Top 3 and most discussed usually end up being:

Maddux, Randy, and Pedro

That’s probably because they were the most dominate 3 that almost everyone saw on TV a lot and we are still alive to remember and talk about them.

I’m biased towards Maddux but both Randy and Pedro were Incredible too.

Seaver has insane stats too and I didn’t see a lot him in his prime but from the highlights I’ve watched his name should definitely be the discussion.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Nolan Ryan has a lot of longtime die hard fans and they are vocal.

The Nolan Ryan cult drives me insane.

This drives them insane.

https://www.sports-reference.com/stathead/tiny/k1TFM

 

[Con]

This has really turned into an excellent thread to read. I can get on board with @selmaborntidefan era list of goats and @tusks_n_raider about how dominant Jordan was.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I have been called more names by Nolan Ryan advocates than by anyone else for pointing out what the above link shows is OBVIOUS: Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than Nolan Ryan was - at virtually every level.

For starters, Niekro - despite starting 62 fewer games in three fewer seasons - FACED MORE BATTERS than Ryan did (22,676 vs 22,575). Niekro played for two first-place teams and five last-place teams while Ryan played for five first-place teams and three last-place teams. And Niekro pitched 342 games (292 starts) in BY FAR the easiest home run park in the National League (Fulton County Stadium).

But in 21 career games he started in Atlanta, Ryan AVERAGED 5.4 innings per start, gave up an average of one hit per inning, and had a record of 8-7 with a 5.02 ERA. He faced 522 batters and gave up 16 bombs, meaning he gave up an average of one homer every 32.1 batters he faced. Nolan Ryan never pitched a complete game in Atlanta Fulton County Stadium. We can spot him grace on the RECORD because you can pitch well and lose - but he didn't pitch well at all in Atlanta. Niekro - throwing slop and knuckleballs and playing for teams that lost nearly 100 games four straight years - gave up one home run every 41.9 batters he faced IN ATLANTA. He was 29 games above .500 pitching for lousy teams in a hitter's park. Niekro pitched 102 complete games and 21 shutouts in AFCS. And just to make it fair, we'll subtract the 3 shutouts he tossed in Atlanta during the pitcher strike zone era of 1963-68. That's still 99 shutouts in Fulton County's Launching Pad.

Ryan had 159 starts in Anaheim, one of the best pitcher parks of its time, and 147 more in the Astrodome, a venue so slanted in favor of the pitcher that no Astro ever won a batting title while Houston played there. Ryan also pitched 62 starts in "favors the pitcher" Shea Stadium.


Despite playing for better teams in better pitcher parks, Nolan Ryan is only better than Phil Niekro in ONE CATEGORY: strikeouts. Bear in mind that when Niekro joined the 3,000 strikeout club, he was only the 9th pitcher in history to make it. When he retired in 1987, he ranked 7th all-time in strikeouts.


And who were the guys above him?
Walter Johnson - played in the deadball era
Don Sutton - who played most of his career in 3 pitcher parks, Chavez Ravine, Anaheim, and Astrodome
Bob Gibson - who ran up his numbers in the six-year pitcher era of 1963-68
Gaylord Perry - who cheated left and right
Steve Carlton - who got 4 seasons under the pitcher era rules
Nolan Ryan - who pitched in almost nothing but pitcher's parks


Now....I'm NOT arguing Phil is the greatest pitcher ever; he's not even close to the greatest BRAVES pitcher ever.

But fact is that every statistic in existence shows he was a better pitcher than Nolan Ryan, too.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Nolan Ryan has a lot of longtime die hard fans and they are vocal.

I mean I like him too and I think he was awesome but not really close to being in a GOAT discussion.

He’s about 20-25th in All Time WAR last I checked and that sounds about right.

Best MLB Pitcher ever discussions come up every few months on Reddit and the usual candidates in no particular order are:

Tom Seaver
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro
Bob Gibson
Walter Johnson
Clemens

Maybe a few other names.

The Top 3 and most discussed usually end up being:

Maddux, Randy, and Pedro

That’s probably because they were the most dominate 3 that almost everyone saw on TV a lot and we are still alive to remember and talk about them.

I’m biased towards Maddux but both Randy and Pedro were Incredible too.

Seaver has insane stats too and I didn’t see a lot him in his prime but from the highlights I’ve watched his name should definitely be the discussion.

This is what Bill James, the guy largely credited with changing how we view baseball, described Tom Seaver, declaring he might - MIGHT - be the greatest pitcher ever.


There is actually a good argument that Tom Seaver should be regarded as the greatest pitcher of all time. Of the five pitchers rated ahead of him, four pitched before World War II, the other just after World War II. Three of those four had their best years before World War I, at a time when big pitchers dominated the game much more than they do now. Where Seaver rates relative to those pitchers, then, depends to a large extent on how steep one believes the incline of history to be. Since no one can say with any confidence how much tougher the game has become, it is certainly reasonable to argue that the accomplishments of early pitchers should have been marked off by more than I have discounted them, and thus that Seaver’s record, in context, is more impressive than Walter’s.

Five of Seaver’s contemporaries (Carlton, Sutton, Nolan Ryan, Phil Niekro, and Gaylord Perry) won more games than Seaver did, but none with winning percentages which even approach Seaver’s (.603). Seaver was 106 games over .500. Jim Palmer was 116 games over .500, Juan Marichal 101 games over, and both had better winning percentages than Seaver, but both played for much better teams than Seaver did.

If Palmer had had the same number of decisions as he actually did every year and the same won-lost record as the rest of his team, his career record would have been 243–177, 66 (half-) games over .500. He improved that by 25 full games, 50 half-games, up to 116 over.

If Juan Marichal had had his actual decisions every year but the winning percentage of his teammates, his career won-lost mark would have been 206–179, 27 games over. He improved that by 74 half-games, up to +101. But if Tom Seaver had posted the winning percentage of his teammates every year, he would have finished his career 250–266, 16 games under .500. He improved that by 122 half-games, up to +106.

Seaver pitched for eight losing teams, several of them really terrible, and four other teams which had losing records except when Seaver was on the mound. As the Win Shares system sees it, Seaver was dragging his teammates to victory to a larger extent than any of his contemporary stars.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Best MLB Pitcher ever discussions come up every few months on Reddit and the usual candidates in no particular order are:


Maybe a few other names.

The two notable guys missing from your list are Lefty Grove (James ranks him #2 all-time behind Walter Johnson) and Warren Spahn (#5).

The thing I find incredible about Spahn is this: the pitcher with the MOST WINS in a career after World War (other than Spahn, 363) is GREG MADDUX (355).

Spahn pitched in 4 games in 1942 at age 21, got no decisions - and then left 3 years on the sidelines while he served the US in World War Two. Had he been able to stay - and especially run up his totals against the less-than-stellar players who didn't serve in the war - he would have probably cleared 400 wins, leaving him only behind Cy Young and Walter. If he had simply averaged what he did over his career in those 3 years, he would have added 51 wins (total: 414), and you can figure he probably would have hung around a bit longer before he retired to try and pass Walter (417) if he was that close (and as noted, he may have anyway).

Having said that, the statistical comparison shows Greg Maddux a better pitcher all-time than Spahn. Spahn did have a lower ERA (3.09 vs 3.16), but he also didn't pitch during the steroid/plastic ballpark/cheap homer era nor did he pitch in the Launching Pad for 4 seasons as Greg did. (Interesting stat: despite facing 1100 fewer batters, Maddux had about 800 more strikeouts than Spahn did).

The best pitchers I ever saw were Maddux (righty) and Steve Carlton (lefty). Seaver was 34 and going over the hill when I first saw him; Carlton had spent ten years doing one of the most regimented workouts ever designed to build strength in his whole body and was thus able to win a Cy Young with a 23-11 season and a league-leading ERA in 1982 at age 37. The next year he slipped a tiny bit but because his run support dropped from 4.34 to 3.73, his record plummeted to 15-16.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

And then on a slow news day, someone scrolls this site again and…..we get MJ23’s take on the greatest……..

"It doesn't exist with me" - Michael Jordan shuts down the GOAT debate once and for all

Michael Jordan is setting the record straight on the GOAT debate, explaining why the title means nothing to him and why comparing legends across different generations is a disservice to the game.

www.yahoo.com