Notre Dame is a product of media hype

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

Cubs fan here, but you're 100% correct...HORRIBLE call!!!
There's a lot of misery right there.

But at least when the Cubs lost, it was because of some bad play (Leon Durham, Dave Martinez).

It wasn't the humans calling the game messing it up for you. (At least this has been somewhat fixed).
 

LSUgrad2BamaDad

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

I visited with a Bama friend of mine Saturday. He asked my HS Senior son where he was thinking about college, other than Alabama, and the reply was Notre Dame. Bama friend told my son the headline in the Tuscaloosa Sports section in 1978 read "Notre Dame Stinks" apparently because they leap frogged Bama after beating whoever was #1 in the bowl game? Selma can give the details I'm sure.
 

deliveryman35

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

If ND never plays for a championship again, they’ve still earned their spot in college football lore.
Take away the 21 st century and they were by nearly any metric one of the top 2 or 3 programs of all time, along with us and Oklahoma.

I hate them with a passion, but I respect what they’ve accomplished and do not believe that they are a creation of the media.
 
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FairlyAmazing

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

Someone help me.


What does, "college football is better when Notre Dame is good" mean?


You can also insert Texas or Michigan.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

I visited with a Bama friend of mine Saturday. He asked my HS Senior son where he was thinking about college, other than Alabama, and the reply was Notre Dame. Bama friend told my son the headline in the Tuscaloosa Sports section in 1978 read "Notre Dame Stinks" apparently because they leap frogged Bama after beating whoever was #1 in the bowl game? Selma can give the details I'm sure.
Having not lived in Tuscaloosa or even the South at the time, I'm totally unaware of this.

I'll do some searching, but I have no firsthand knowledge.
 

78Alum

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Originally Posted by LSUgrad2BamaDad

I visited with a Bama friend of mine Saturday. He asked my HS Senior son where he was thinking about college, other than Alabama, and the reply was Notre Dame. Bama friend told my son the headline in the Tuscaloosa Sports section in 1978 read "Notre Dame Stinks" apparently because they leap frogged Bama after beating whoever was #1 in the bowl game? Selma can give the details I'm sure.

I well remember this and one of the many reasons to hate Notre Dame. A 5th ranked Notre Dame handily beat a Number 1 ranked Texas and jumped all the way to Number 1 in the final AP poll. We were ranked 3rd and destroyed Ohio State in the 1978 Sugar Bowl. It was expected that we would be Number 1 and of course the sportswriters voted Notre Dame #1. It kept us from having a 3-peat (1977, 1978, 1979).

And BTW, we lost during the regular season to Nebraska, they lost during the season to Ole Sis...
 

selmaborntidefan

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"I don't think anybody in the country can beat us."
Dan Devine, ND Coach, January 2, 1978.


Uh, you lost to Ole Miss.
At home.

Incidentally, Barry Switzer advocated for Alabama as well, based on the notion that Texas and OU both lost badly, going so far as to say he thought we'd win it.

Oh well.
 

selmaborntidefan

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And BTW, we lost during the regular season to Nebraska, they lost during the season to Ole Sis...


True.

But the flip side?

Notre Dame beat Miami by 38 on the road, Alabama beat Miami by 36 at home.
Notre Dame beat USC by 30 at home, we beat them by 1 on the road
Notre Dame also beat final #10 (and defending champs) Pitt on the road by 10.

They beat four top 20 teams to our two, and outscored their tougher schedule by 40 points more than we did.


(I do wonder how many Tide fans are actually aware that if we had won the 1977 national title, it would have been against the 2nd weakest schedule of any national champion in the last 50 years - the sole exception being 1984 BYU?). We beat four teams with winning records, and six teams in the SEC had five or fewer wins.

I don't argue against us, obviously, but 1977 had nothing on 1966 in terms of egregious voting. At least in 1977, Notre Dame actually beat the team in the last game.


However.....if we invoke the "toughest schedule" argument then one has to wonder why Penn State didn't win the national title that year. They beat Miami by 42, Pitt by 2 (in a rivalry game), and their loss was to a Kentucky team that would have been co-SEC champion except they were on probation.
 

TideEngineer08

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True.

But the flip side?

Notre Dame beat Miami by 38 on the road, Alabama beat Miami by 36 at home.
Notre Dame beat USC by 30 at home, we beat them by 1 on the road
Notre Dame also beat final #10 (and defending champs) Pitt on the road by 10.

They beat four top 20 teams to our two, and outscored their tougher schedule by 40 points more than we did.


(I do wonder how many Tide fans are actually aware that if we had won the 1977 national title, it would have been against the 2nd weakest schedule of any national champion in the last 50 years - the sole exception being 1984 BYU?). We beat four teams with winning records, and six teams in the SEC had five or fewer wins.

I don't argue against us, obviously, but 1977 had nothing on 1966 in terms of egregious voting. At least in 1977, Notre Dame actually beat the team in the last game.


However.....if we invoke the "toughest schedule" argument then one has to wonder why Penn State didn't win the national title that year. They beat Miami by 42, Pitt by 2 (in a rivalry game), and their loss was to a Kentucky team that would have been co-SEC champion except they were on probation.
I did not know the details but I knew there was some logic to awarding them over us that year. I'm also aware that we did not play a murderer's row in 1966, either, but a 2 time defending champion that goes 11-0 and destroys Nebraska in the Sugar Bowl deserves at least a share of the NC over two teams that played each other to a tie, with the one team (Notre Dame) electing to sit on the ball at the end rather than attempt to win the game.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I did not know the details but I knew there was some logic to awarding them over us that year. I'm also aware that we did not play a murderer's row in 1966, either, but a 2 time defending champion that goes 11-0 and destroys Nebraska in the Sugar Bowl deserves at least a share of the NC over two teams that played each other to a tie, with the one team (Notre Dame) electing to sit on the ball at the end rather than attempt to win the game.
There's nothing "wrong" with the logic that ends with Notre Dame winning it......except you then have to ask the obvious question: "Why, then, wasn't Notre Dame ranked THIRD or SECOND rather than FIFTH?"

That's the legitimate beef we have over the whole thing.


1966 is a completely different animal for the reasons you state. Not only two-time champions but started the year at #1 and never lost.

And my study of ties shows that teams that tie DROPPED about 75% of the time (the major exception was when it was a "bad" team that tied a perceived "good" one).
 

ALA2262

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

At least the Rangers were not on the receiving end of the worst call in the history of MLB. The infamous "in field" flyout call. Braves fans threw stuff at the umps onto Turner field. I almost threw stuff onto the field from my living room. Every single baseball fans thinks the call was garbage.
I don't. When an infielder is camping under a fly ball under the infield fly situation, it is an infield fly. No ifs, ands, or buts. The shortstop was camping under the fly ball on that call. It was correctly ruled an infield fly.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

I don't. When an infielder is camping under a fly ball under the infield fly situation, it is an infield fly. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Actually, he wasn't camped, he was still pursuing the ball and it landed behind any place where he "camped."


The shortstop was camping under the fly ball on that call. It was correctly ruled an infield fly.
Camping isn't even the issue here (nor was he camped - he was retreating and never got under it).

What's funny is that your verbiage is precisely why Ron Darling was arguing in favor of the Braves.

The call is DEFENSIBLE in that it was the ump's judgment that the shortstop could have caught it with "routine" effort.
It was defensible in that it was a judgment call.

By the same token, the Braves' fans were downright embarrassing that day with the littering of the field, and the Braves lost because they made three errors, not because of the infield fly.
 

B1GTide

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

By the same token, the Braves' fans were downright embarrassing that day with the littering of the field,
I thought that was awesome! And it was one of the worst calls in MLB playoff history, judgement call or not.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

I thought that was awesome! And it was one of the worst calls in MLB playoff history, judgement call or not.
As a Braves fan, I find this deeply embarrassing that they did that regardless.

I saw it and was shocked, but I can't say it was a case of "got the rule wrong."
 

B1GTide

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

As a Braves fan, I find this deeply embarrassing that they did that regardless.

I saw it and was shocked, but I can't say it was a case of "got the rule wrong."
I would not have thrown things on the field as I would have worried that I might hurt someone, but I was pretty angry at the call. I can see how fans who had been drinking beer for 3-4 hours could have shown worse judgement. I remember thinking that the Braves deserved the hideous call given their poor play, but I was still angry. Braves fans should be used to angry feelings at the end of the MLB playoffs, right?

And don't even get me started on the Eric Gregg strike zone in the 1997 NLCS. I still feel like punching someone when I think about that game.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

I would not have thrown things on the field as I would have worried that I might hurt someone, but I was pretty angry at the call. I can see how fans who had been drinking beer for 3-4 hours could have shown worse judgement. I remember thinking that the Braves deserved the hideous call given their poor play, but I was still angry. Braves fans should be used to angry feelings at the end of the MLB playoffs, right?

And don't even get me started on the Eric Gregg strike zone in the 1997 NLCS. I still feel like punching someone when I think about that game.

Ya know, if you gave me the strike zone Livan Hernandez got that day, I'd still own the record for Ks in a playoff game.

That was despicable beyond words.
 

81usaf92

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

Let's ask ourselves, though......how many "real" chokes did the Braves actually have?


1991 - no
1992 - no, Toronto was the better team
1993 - yes (Philly was 70-92 in 1992 and the only difference in 93 was they added Scott Rolen; in 94, they had a losing record with mostly the same team)
1996 - maybe (but given what happened next, this will not be recalled as a choke but as the beginning of the late 90s Yankee dynasty)
1997 - no (Florida went 8-4 against Atlanta and won 92 games, 2nd in the NL)
1998 - maybe (San Diego won 98 games that year and basically split the season with the Braves, 4-5....and given what Bochy later did with SF......)
1999 - no
2000 - lost to a team with the same record that was 4-3 against the Braves in the season)
2001 - no
2002 - yes
2003 - yes
2004 - maybe
2005 - yes to Houston, but they would not have won the World Series

So in a 14-year span, I'm willing to concede that FOUR times they failed to advance were flat out chokes while 3 more were debatable.
I think the mere fact they're debatable disqualifies them as chokes.


On the flip side....

1) Cox DID manage to become the first manager to blow a 3-1 series lead in the LCS in 1985 with Toronto (he came within a Francisco Cabrera hit of repeating this in the NL)

2) The Braves choked in 2011 when Cox was nowhere to be seen and looked awful last year in the playoffs, too.


Charlie Leibrandt might be the most hard luck post-season pitcher in history.

1979 LCS
not even yet a rookie with the Reds, he comes into a must win game trailing, 6-0. He balks, sending Willie Stargell to 3rd, but gets out of the inning.

1984 LCS
In another must win with KC, Charlie pitches phenomenally, giving up only 3 hits.....and losing, 1-0 on a 2nd inning manufactured run

1985 LCS
starts game one, gets shelled for 5 runs in the 2nd inning and KC loses
starts game four - pitches great into the 9th with a 1-0 lead, gives up a walk and double, Quiz comes in, and Leibrandt loses when Quiz fails
WINS game seven - he's only in there because KC's best pitcher, Saberhagen, takes a line drive off his pitching hand


1985 World Series
game 2 - leads 2-0 entering the ninth with a five-hitter....gives up four runs and loses
game 6 - gives up 4 hits, leaves trailing, 1-0, and then gets a no decision thanks in large part to Don Denkinger

1991 NLCS
game 4 - staked to a 2-0 lead in the first, gives them back thanks in large part to Charlie's failure to back up third on an overthrow; no decision, Braves lose, 3-2

1991 World Series
game 1- gives up 4 runs in 4 innings and gets the loss
game 6 - Puckett slams Leibrandt's fourth pitch for a game-winning HR

1992
game 5 - relieves Avery down, 5-0, and gives up a run in 1.2 innings, relieved by the forgettable Marvin Freeman with two men on
game 6 - pitches great after the Braves are down, 8-0, for three relief innings

1992 World Series
game 6 - finally makes an appearance and loses the damned ballgame

If you look over these, it didn't matter whether Charlie pitched great or awful.....he almost always was on the wrong side at the end.
1996 was probably the only World Series choke the Braves actually have. Taking the 1st 2 games in New York, and having a total 8th inning collapse in Game 4 constitutes as a choke when you consider that was the best Braves team of all time playing against a Yankees team that possibly isn't in the top 10 Yankees team. Atlanta far and away was the better team. 1999 New York was, but 1996 Atlanta was. But the most painful world series is still 1991.

But I think people try their best to lump the Braves of the 90's in with Georgia, the Bills, and Peyton Manning led teams. But Atlanta choked fewer times than people really think
 

81usaf92

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

I would not have thrown things on the field as I would have worried that I might hurt someone, but I was pretty angry at the call. I can see how fans who had been drinking beer for 3-4 hours could have shown worse judgement. I remember thinking that the Braves deserved the hideous call given their poor play, but I was still angry. Braves fans should be used to angry feelings at the end of the MLB playoffs, right?

And don't even get me started on the Eric Gregg strike zone in the 1997 NLCS. I still feel like punching someone when I think about that game.
I was angry about that call for 2 reasons. 1) that was Chipper's last game and 2) It was pretty much a guarenteed NLCS berth because Washington had handcuffed Strasburg. I have hated the Cardinals pretty much ever since, and plus one of my friends was a obnoxious Cards fan that wouldnt let their supremacy over us go. So I have found myself being a temporary Giants and Red Sox fan when the time calls for it.

But that was a bull crap call. I dont know if we wouldve won, but it pretty much ended any chance of it. A Left field umpire has no buisness calling an infield fly call when you have 3 infield umpires.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

1996 was probably the only World Series choke the Braves actually have. Taking the 1st 2 games in New York, and having a total 8th inning collapse in Game 4 constitutes as a choke when you consider that was the best Braves team of all time playing against a Yankees team that possibly isn't in the top 10 Yankees team. Atlanta far and away was the better team. 1999 New York was, but 1996 Atlanta was. But the most painful world series is still 1991.

But I think people try their best to lump the Braves of the 90's in with Georgia, the Bills, and Peyton Manning led teams. But Atlanta choked fewer times than people really think
I can buy this.

It's funny how things change. For years all that anxiety.

And then on the Tuesday of game 3, my ex asks me about the upcoming weekend and plans, and I actually say, "Well, the World Series will probably be over by then"..........and then we lost the damned thing that night.

The Braves are to blame for the Yankee dynasty. If we'd just beaten them, Stein would have fired Torre, and there would have been no Yankee dynasty.
 

81usaf92

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

The Braves are to blame for the Yankee dynasty. If we'd just beaten them, Stein would have fired Torre, and there would have been no Yankee dynasty.
I think the Yankees in 1996 were the Braves of 1992... a team destined for WS runs but missing that one piece. In 1998 they got it, but in 1996 they were an unfinished product. Point is that if that debacle in the 8th in game 4 doesn't happen, then there is noway they are beating Atlanta 3 straight when Atlanta can save Smotlz and Maddux for New York.
 

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