Rioting at Charlottsville Va (UVA) by white nationalists and counter protesters

AUDub · Dec 11, 2018

Jury recommendation is life in prison.

Tidewater · Dec 11, 2018

AUDub said:
Jury recommendation is life in prison.

Jury recommends life in prison plus 419 years for Charlottesville car attacker
Given how popular this guy is going to be in prison, I do not expect him to survive until parole.
I also do not expect to grieve over much if he does not survive.

Crimson1967 · Dec 11, 2018

As one who opposes the death penalty, I am fine with his sentence.

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AUDub · Dec 11, 2018

Crimson1967 said:
As one who opposes the death penalty, I am fine with his sentence.

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Cases like this often make it difficult to maintain such a stance, but it's not meant to be easy.

Crimson1967 · Dec 11, 2018

AUDub said:
Cases like this often make it difficult to maintain such a stance, but it's not meant to be easy.

I don’t think this guy got up that morning intending to kill people. He made a very stupid and impulsive decision that killed a young woman. Not that I feel sorry for him, mind you.

I oppose it for a number of reasons I won’t go into here. But opposing it in every case makes it easier for me in thinking about sentencing people.

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Tidewater · Dec 11, 2018

Crimson1967 said:
I don’t think this guy got up that morning intending to kill people.

He did drive a car into a crowd at high speed to kill people, though.
My only objection to the death penalty in such cases is that the Commonwealth would have spent a mountain of money in lawyer fees trying execute this guy. Cheaper to house the guy until a fellow inmate who disagrees with his politics shivs him.

Crimson1967 · Dec 11, 2018

Tidewater said:
He did drive a car into a crowd at high speed to kill people, though.
My only objection to the death penalty in such cases is that the Commonwealth would have spent a mountain of money in lawyer fees trying execute this guy. Cheaper to house the guy until a fellow inmate who disagrees with his politics shivs him.

Prison justice is often better than what the government hands down.

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twofbyc · Dec 11, 2018

Tidewater said:
Jury recommends life in prison plus 419 years for Charlottesville car attacker
Given how popular this guy is going to be in prison, I do not expect him to survive until parole.
I also do not expect to grieve over much if he does not survive.

Ummmm....you do understand there is a large prison contingent of Aryan Brotherhood/Skinheads/Nazis, right?
I’m not certain at all that he won’t die of old age in prison, barring any inmate prisoners vs prisoners riot.

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Tidewater · Dec 11, 2018

twofbyc said:
Ummmm....you do understand there is a large prison contingent of Aryan Brotherhood/Skinheads/Nazis, right?
I’m not certain at all that he won’t die of old age in prison, barring any inmate prisoners vs prisoners riot.

I'd rather the legal system did it, but it would cost so much and I'm a fiscal reactionary. Still, I would not be surprised if somebody who did not care for his attitudes on race got him alone in prison some time.

Crimson1967 · Dec 12, 2018

Tidewater said:
Jury recommends life in prison plus 419 years for Charlottesville car attacker
Given how popular this guy is going to be in prison, I do not expect him to survive until parole.
I also do not expect to grieve over much if he does not survive.

Just read the linked article. Sounds like he did have some intent to harm people.

He may go into protective custody due to his notoriety.

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Its On A Slab · Dec 12, 2018

twofbyc said:
Ummmm....you do understand there is a large prison contingent of Aryan Brotherhood/Skinheads/Nazis, right?
I’m not certain at all that he won’t die of old age in prison, barring any inmate prisoners vs prisoners riot.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That is what I was thinking. He will probably be hailed as a hero to his race by the Aryan Nations convicts.

Tidewater · May 1, 2019

Finally, some rational thought out of Charlottesville.
Virginia judge rules Charlottesville Confederate Statues Are War Monuments Protected by State Law
Actually, Judge Moore (no relation that I know of) issued a summary judgement as part of a larger case.
Here is a link to the text of his nine-page ruling.

Judge Moore said:
I find that there is no other reasonable conclusion but that these statues are monuments and memorials to Lee and Jackson as Generals of the Confederate States of America, and that as such they are monuments or memorials to veterans of one of the wars listed.

Judge Moore said:
I believe the defendants (those trying to take the statues down) have confused or conflated 1) what the statues are with 2) the intentions or motivations of some involved in erecting them, or the impact they might have on some people and how they might make people feel.

Judge Moore said:
While some people obviously see Lee and Jackson as symbols of white supremacy, others see them as brilliant military tacticians or complex leaders in a difficult time (much like Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, William Tecumseh Sherman, or even Oliver Cromwell or Dietrich Bonhoeffer), and do not think of white supremacy at all and certainly do not believe in, accept, or agree with such. In either event, the statues to them under the undisputed facts of this case still are monuments and memorials to them, as veterans of the Civil War.

According to the judge, it is possible for different people to look at these statues and see them with different interpretive lenses.

Judge Moore said:
Finally, defendants quote Alexander Stevens, Lee, and Jackson about their views on the inferiority of the African or black race to the white race. I do not see the relevance of this to the issue before the court. It is a non sequitur, and does not prove or lead to the point being argued. As I mentioned for the bench in a previous hearing, Abraham Lincoln expressed similar views on racial equality. In the Lincoln Douglas debates just a few years before he became president, he had said somethings very much like the quote in the brief. This is not to say that such views are, in anyway, acceptable or less bad because he held them, but it does show how widespread and pervasive, even ubiquitous, such views in society were. And I do not see how those views being held by many Southerners (and Northerners) informs or helps decide whether these statues in question or monuments or memorials to Civil War veterans of the Civil War.
Therefore, in conclusion, I find that both statues are monuments and memorials to veterans of the War Between the States, as mentioned in Virginia code §15.2-182, and I am granting plaintiffs motion for partial summary judgment as to these two statues each being a monument or a memorial to a veteran of the Civil War, or the War Between the States.

The rest of the case Payne, et al. v. City of Charlottesville et al. will now proceed.

92tide · Jul 3, 2019

Charlottesville scraps Jefferson’s birthday as holiday

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) — Charlottesville, Virginia, will no longer celebrate Thomas Jefferson’s birthday as an official city holiday and instead will observe a day recognizing the emancipation of enslaved African-Americans.

The city council voted Monday night to scrap the decades-old April 13 holiday honoring the slave-holding president and Founding Father. Charlottesville will now mark Liberation and Freedom Day on March 3, the day U.S. Army forces arrived in the city in 1865.

Tidewater · Jul 3, 2019

92tide said:
Charlottesville scraps Jefferson’s birthday as holiday

The city council voted Monday night to scrap the decades-old April 13 holiday honoring the slave-holding president and Founding Father. Charlottesville will now mark Liberation and Freedom Day on March 3, the day U.S. Army forces arrived in the city in 1865.

That was the day after the Battle of Waynesboro, Va., the last battle in the Shenandoah Valley, where Sheridan thumped Jubal Early's tiny army pretty thoroughly.
Any March 3 slave liberations would have been short-lived since Phil Sheridan was riding east to join Grant outside of Petersburg and Sheridan did not leave any garrison in Charlottesville when he left March 6th. I doubt any of the emancipated slaves hopped on horses and joined Sheridan as he rode east because the Union army had confiscated every viable horse, so the Union army "liberated" the slaves for 72 hours and then left them in Charlottesville.
Plus, the U.S. army behaved poorly in Charlottesville, ransacking private residences and engaging in widespread theft of personal property. They did not burn the University or private residences. Cause for celebration, I suppose.

If not for Jefferson, Charlottesville would probably be the size of Palmyra, county seat of nearby Fluvanna County. None of you have ever heard of Palmyra, probably, and that is the point.

CharminTide · Jul 3, 2019

The South: noble victims since 1865.

Tidewater · Jul 3, 2019

CharminTide said:
The South: noble victims since 1865.

I think the city council's resolution implies a lot that is not true. Sheridan's army, 10,000 cavalry troops, did not come to liberate slaves. It came to Charlottesville to destroy a railroad bridge, burn some woolen mils (appropriate military targets in my view) and while they stayed, ransacked a few houses that had nothing to do with the war effort. This bad behavior was simply a follow-through of the appalling behavior the same troops had committed in the Shenandoah Valley the previous autumn, in which they burned every barn, killed every pig, cow, and sheep, in northern Augusta, Rockingham, Shenandoah and Page Counties, and burned 40 houses to boot. Sheridan's troopers figured, if you are going to burn a house, why not steal valuables before torching it? And they did not discriminate between slaveholders and nonslaveholders. They did not always discriminate between Unionists and Confederate sympathizers. If a civilian owned a barn, it was given over to the flames. If they had livestock, they were getting slaughtered and left to rot.
In Charlottesville, the same troopers continued their thieving ways. They did not systematically burn civilians' barns or kill their livestock, but they did ransack houses and steal valuables. Hardly cause for celebration by the city council.

And celebrating the event as liberation of slaves is not even faithful to the facts. Sheridan's army came to destroy things. Having done that, they left. In a hurry. There was a war to be fought still. If the city council wanted to observe the permanent Union occupation of Charlottesville, that was probably in late April 1865. (The next county seat to the west, Staunton, was permanently occupied on April 29). As it is, they have commemorated the burning of woolen mills, the destruction of the railroad bridge and the ransacking of a few houses.

How that outweighs a lifetime of service by Thomas Jefferson to Albemarle, the Commonwealth or Virginia, and the United States, I do not understand.

CrimsonNagus · Jul 3, 2019

I appreciate your posts Tidewater but, you mind as well give up. Actual historical context doesn’t matter these days to most people. North good - south bad, that’s about the only context folks care about.

92tide · Jul 3, 2019

CrimsonNagus said:
I appreciate your posts Tidewater but, you mind as well give up. Actual historical context doesn’t matter these days to most people. North good - south bad, that’s about the only context folks care about.

you mean there is an actual market for participation trophies?

92tide · Jul 3, 2019

Union Occupation of Charlottesville (1865)

On March 6, Sheridan's men left, riding south in the direction of Scottsville, on the James River. "Our train of negroes now numbered thousands," Denison, of the 1st Rhode Island, wrote, "and was constantly increasing." Rather than meet up with Sherman, Sheridan led his cavalry to Petersburg and participated in the subsequent Appomattox Campaign and Confederate surrender.

RollTide_HTTR · Jul 3, 2019

Tidewater said:
I think the city council's resolution implies a lot that is not true. Sheridan's army, 10,000 cavalry troops, did not come to liberate slaves. It came to Charlottesville to destroy a railroad bridge, burn some woolen mils (appropriate military targets in my view) and while they stayed, ransacked a few houses that had nothing to do with the war effort. This bad behavior was simply a follow-through of the appalling behavior the same troops had committed in the Shenandoah Valley the previous autumn, in which they burned every barn, killed every pig, cow, and sheep, in northern Augusta, Rockingham, Shenandoah and Page Counties, and burned 40 houses to boot. Sheridan's troopers figured, if you are going to burn a house, why not steal valuables before torching it? And they did not discriminate between slaveholders and nonslaveholders. They did not always discriminate between Unionists and Confederate sympathizers. If a civilian owned a barn, it was given over to the flames. If they had livestock, they were getting slaughtered and left to rot.
In Charlottesville, the same troopers continued their thieving ways. They did not systematically burn civilians' barns or kill their livestock, but they did ransack houses and steal valuables. Hardly cause for celebration by the city council.

And celebrating the event as liberation of slaves is not even faithful to the facts. Sheridan's army came to destroy things. Having done that, they left. In a hurry. There was a war to be fought still. If the city council wanted to observe the permanent Union occupation of Charlottesville, that was probably in late April 1865. (The next county seat to the west, Staunton, was permanently occupied on April 29). As it is, they have commemorated the burning of woolen mills, the destruction of the railroad bridge and the ransacking of a few houses.

How that outweighs a lifetime of service by Thomas Jefferson to Albemarle, the Commonwealth or Virginia, and the United States, I do not understand.

Is your issue with the day they chose? or that they are celebrating the freeing of slaves? Because if you want to hold holiday's accountable for being accurate dates then take on Christmas.

Rioting at Charlottsville Va (UVA) by white nationalists and counter protesters

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