Link: High Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

NYBamaFan

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Not exactly.
What I would argue is that the Bill of Rights was not intended to, and did not, restrict the state governments. The Founders intended each state's constitution to deal with that state's government.
Agreed, but the fourteenth changed all of that - from wiki (yeah, bad source, but accurate in this case):
In Barron v. Baltimore (1833), the Supreme Court ruled that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states. While many state constitutions are modeled after the United States Constitution and federal laws, those state constitutions did not necessarily include provisions comparable to the Bill of Rights. According to some commentators, the framers and early supporters of the Fourteenth Amendment believed that it would ensure that the states would be required to recognize the individual rights the federal government was already required to respect in the Bill of Rights and in other constitutional provisions; all of these rights were likely understood to fall within the "privileges or immunities" safeguarded by the amendment.[33] However, in the Slaughter-House Cases (1873), the Supreme Court ruled that the amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause was limited to "privileges or immunities" granted to citizens by the federal government in virtue of national citizenship. The Court further held in the Civil Rights Cases (1883) that the amendment was limited to "state action" and thus did not authorize the Congress to outlaw racial discrimination on the part of private individuals or organizations. Neither of these decisions has been overturned and in fact have been specifically reaffirmed several times.[34]

However, by the latter half of the twentieth century, nearly all of the rights in the Bill of Rights had been applied to the states, under what is known as the incorporation doctrine.[35] The Supreme Court has held that the amendment's Due Process Clause incorporates all of the substantive protections of the First, Fourth and Sixth Amendments, the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause of the Eighth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment (except for its Grand Jury Clause).[36] The Seventh Amendment has not been held to be applicable to the states.[36] The Supreme Court is reviewing McDonald v. Chicago, a case dealing with whether the Second Amendment is to be incorporated.[37] While the Third Amendment has not been applied to the states by the Supreme Court, the Second Circuit ruled that it did apply to the states within that circuit's jurisdiction in Engblom v. Carey.[38]
Note the part in bold.
 

HomeBrew Tider

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Agreed, but the fourteenth changed all of that - from wiki (yeah, bad source, but accurate in this case):

Note the part in bold.
I did not realize that SCOTUS had previously ruled this way. Unbelievable, in my view. I strongly doubt that these rulings mirror the intent of the founders. In fact, I'm struggling to understand on what legal basis the national government can prevent any conceivable law, no matter how egregiously in violation of the constitution, to be passed by a state legislature.

Not exactly.
What I would argue is that the Bill of Rights was not intended to, and did not, restrict the state governments. The Founders intended each state's constitution to deal with that state's government.
Am I to take this to mean that if a state passes a law denying due process for criminal suspects, for example, the federal government is to ignore it? This seems like a slippery slope to me. Like astroglide slippery.
 
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NYBamaFan

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Am I to take this to mean that if a state passes a law denying due process for criminal suspects, for example, the federal government is to ignore it? This seems like a slippery slope to me. Like astroglide slippery.
Again, the fourteenth removed that possibility. Before it was passed, the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states unless they wrote them into their state constitutions...
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Agreed, but the fourteenth changed all of that - from wiki (yeah, bad source, but accurate in this case):
Well, the XIV did not change all of that, just some of that. What parts it changed and what parts it did not is the subject of the controversy.
Note the part in bold.
Agreed. Whatever the SCOTUS does, it will have the benefit of resolving the matter.
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Am I to take this to mean that if a state passes a law denying due process for criminal suspects, for example, the federal government is to ignore it? This seems like a slippery slope to me. Like astroglide slippery.
Before the XIV Amendment, that is exactly what it meant.
Even after, depending on how one wants to interpret the meaning of the XIV Amendment, it would depend.
Given just how shaky the ratification of the XIV Amendment (University of Alabama's Forrest McDonald argued convincingly that the XIV Amendment was never really ratified by northern Republicans), I would argue that a restrictive interpretation of the XIV amendment is more appropriate. I think that a good argument could be formulated stating that an expansive interpretation of the XIV Amendment (in which the Federal judiciary is overturning state statutes and state court decisions willy-nilly) would not have gained the necessary 2/3 of the legislators and 3/4 of the states' legislatures. A Federal court ruling declaring that a local government can't erect a nativity scene (or a Festivus pole) comes not from the document or the democratic debates that produced it, but from the judge's prejudices or predilections, sort of like a judge saying, "This is not what the Constitution says, but, if I had been a member of Congress when this amendment was debated, this is what I would have wanted it to say, so this is what it means now." Now that is a slippery slope.

If a state denied due process to a citizen charged with a criminal offense, I would look to the state constitution and the state courts for redress first. (Why would one believe that the Federal government is more likely to protect due process than a state government?) But I would have to go back to the debates in Congress and the state legislatures to see if due process in criminal cases was amongst the privileges and immunities intended to be protected by the XIV Amendment.
It might well be that the proposers and ratifiers of the XIV Amendment intended that to be amongst the privileges and immunities covered. If so, then the Federal action to prevent a state from this would be in order.
The Constitution for the United States, however, along with all its amendments, must draw its meaning from the bodies that proposed, and especially those that ratified, its provisions. Independent of those intentions, it has no meaning.
 

bamacon

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

I'm as much of a state's rights guy as anyone you'll find, but I admit that this logic is lost on me. I fail to see how the fourteenth amendment is relevant on a second amendment issue.

It's not until the tenth amendment where we read that all powers not delegated to the Federal Gov't by the constitution are reserved to the states. The right to keep and bear arms, second only to that of speech and assembly, in the Bill of Rights of the national government, is clearly not a matter for states to infringe upon.

That is my reading, at least. Please tell me where I'm off.
This is how I feel about it. I think the Founders saw this is a "no fly zone" so to speak. I feel the Court will hold to similar wording to the DC ruling (with the exact same vote). Then again, the Court seems to be anything but consistent when it comes to their rulings.
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

This is how I feel about it. I think the Founders saw this is a "no fly zone" so to speak. I feel the Court will hold to similar wording to the DC ruling (with the exact same vote). Then again, the Court seems to be anything but consistent when it comes to their rulings.
... a result of cutting away the anchor that is the Constitution, and flowing with the tides of one's personal preferences.
 

NYBamaFan

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

This is how I feel about it. I think the Founders saw this is a "no fly zone" so to speak. I feel the Court will hold to similar wording to the DC ruling (with the exact same vote). Then again, the Court seems to be anything but consistent when it comes to their rulings.
While I agree, at least this change came through the amendment process, so it is as legit as the original document...
 

RamJamHam

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

This is an interesting question for sure, as all Constitutional questions tend to be.

I tend more toward original intent in my view, so I'll give that disclaimer before I play devil's advocate and ask a few questions.

First, for you folks who are talking about legislative intent and that sort of thing, how do you square that with Justice Scalia's (a staunch original intenter) view that legislative history doesn't matter? Not to put too fine a point on it, but that would surely mean that we would not look to margin of victory ever.

Second, at the time the Constitution was written, basically anybody other than white men, predominately of Western European descent, were deprived to one extent or another of what we now commonly recognize as their rights under the Constitution. If you truly believe in the doctrine of original intent, how do you square this?

I don't mean that as a flame or a challenge; I'm interested in answers to issues that I personally struggle with at times. I'll be interested to see what happens.
 

Bama Reb

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

can cities legally pass restrictive laws that are covered in the state constitution? bc this isnt just an illinois issue, this is a specific issue to the city of chicago.
Of course they can. Federal laws can be overridden by State Laws, which can be overridden by County laws, which themselves can be overridden by town or city ordinances.
 

Tider@GW_Law

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Of course they can. Federal laws can be overridden by State Laws, which can be overridden by County laws, which themselves can be overridden by town or city ordinances.
Partially true. States can generally pass laws that are more restrictive than federal laws - unless it is in a field that is totally within the purview of federal law (field preemption), e.g. regulating airplane safety. However, the Supremacy Clause (Art. IV, Cl. 2 of the Constitution) establishes federal law as trumping state law where the two are in direct conflict.
 

Tider@GW_Law

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Based on everything I've heard and read about the arguments yesterday, it sounds as if nothing will really change after this decision regardless of how they rule. Experts seem to think they will incorporate the 2nd Am. through the 14th Am. due process clause, but address it as a core right subject to states' reasonable restrictions, which are passed through a political process.

A solid analysis from Lyle Denniston of the SCOTUSBlog:

The Supreme Court on Tuesday seemed poised to require state and local governments to obey the Second Amendment guarantee of a personal right to a gun, but with perhaps considerable authority to regulate that right. The dominant sentiment on the Court was to extend the Amendment beyond the federal level, based on the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of “due process,” since doing so through another part of the 14th Amendment would raise too many questions about what other rights might emerge.
On the other hand, it is notoriously difficult to predict how the Justices will rule based on the questions and comments made during oral arguments. Per the usual in recent years, it may all come down to how Justice Kennedy decides to cast his vote.
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

First, for you folks who are talking about legislative intent and that sort of thing, how do you square that with Justice Scalia's (a staunch original intenter) view that legislative history doesn't matter? Not to put too fine a point on it, but that would surely mean that we would not look to margin of victory ever.
When Scalia does not follow the original intent (and he does not always do so), he is not an "original intenter."
I believe legislative history matters. It speaks to intentions of those proposing and ratifying the Constitution and its amendments, and the extent to which they were willing to go. Any legislative act, including an amendment to the Constitution, is the result of some compromises.
Let me provide a simple analogy. A group of folks are living in Boston in October and it is getting cold. Most want to go to a warmer clime and propose moving south for the winter. Some want to go to Baltimore. Others prefer to go on to Charleston. Those with cold blood want to go all the way to Miami. If they have only one car (the analogue to the Constitution in this case), they have to compromise. If the choice is Miami or nothing, the group might just stay in Boston because some simply refuse to go that far. They compromise, however, and decide to go to Charleston. Once they are on the way, for someone to say, "Well, Person X wanted to go to Miami, and we've all agreed to head south, so we have to go all the way to Miami," this would be illegitimate. The group did not agree to go to Miami, only as far as Charleston.
The same applies to the XIV Amendment. Most members of Congress agreed that they needed to stop the southern states from abusing the freedmen, and denying them privileges and immunities of citizenship. What those P&I were was a matter of debate. Everyone agreed that freedmen should at a minimum have the right to testify in court, sit on a jury, bring suit, enter into contracts. Not everyone agreed that they should have the right to vote (which is why they subsequently fixed that with the XV Amendment). Very few agreed that the privileges and immunities were meant to "incorporate" the Bill of Rights (which was originally intended to prevent the Federal government from interfering with people's rights) and apply the Federal BoR against state action. Even with this narrow listing of the privileges and immunities (testify in court, sit on a jury, etc.), the XIV Amendment was barely ratified (if it really was ratified at all). For the Federal bench now to cite the most extreme members of the Congress that proposed the XIV Amendment (or the judges’ own whims or predilections) is akin to the person in my analogy arguing for gong all the way to Miami. It is illegitimate, in light of the near-run thing that was the adoption of the XIV. That is why I believe legislative history is important in construing the Constitution. If proposers/legislators at the time had explicitly intended the XIV to incorporate the BoR (i.e. "this amendment is intended to prevent a town from erecting a nativity scene at Christmastime"), it would not have gotten ⅔ of both houses of Congress and ¾ of the states.
Second, at the time the Constitution was written, basically anybody other than white men, predominately of Western European descent, were deprived to one extent or another of what we now commonly recognize as their rights under the Constitution. If you truly believe in the doctrine of original intent, how do you square this?
The white men that drafted, debated and ratified the Constitution (a document we probably agree is a pretty good document) represented "the people of the states," as imperfectly conceived as "the people" were in 1787-1790.
A hundred years from now, people might look at our conception of "the people" and wonder how we got it so wrong when we, in our view, believe we have gotten it right. Mel Bradford called this "provincialism in time."
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

However, the Supremacy Clause (Art. IV, Cl. 2 of the Constitution) establishes federal law as trumping state law where the two are in direct conflict.
... as long as those Federal laws "shall be made in Pursuance" of the Constitution for the United States.
When Federal laws are not made in pursuance thereof, well, we have a problem.
 

Bama Reb

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Partially true. States can generally pass laws that are more restrictive than federal laws - unless it is in a field that is totally within the purview of federal law (field preemption), e.g. regulating airplane safety. However, the Supremacy Clause (Art. IV, Cl. 2 of the Constitution) establishes federal law as trumping state law where the two are in direct conflict.
Disagree. Article 4, Clause 2 of the US Constitution:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
State laws trump federal laws, not the other way around.
 

Tider@GW_Law

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Disagree. Article 4, Clause 2 of the US Constitution:

State laws trump federal laws, not the other way around.
You're missing one crucial point, which is that when Congress passes many laws it is considered to be an interpretation of their Constitutional power and when the Supreme Court of the U.S. interprets a Constitutional issue it is considered as an interpretation of the Constitution.

Case in point, Gonzales v. Raich, where California's Compassionate Use Act, which legalized medical marijuana, was in conflict with the federal Controlled Substances Act. Guess what happened? Federal law, held to have been a valid use of Congress' commerce powers, trumped state law and the DEA can still bust California citizens in California for using medical marijuana (though Holder has now said the DOJ will not strictly enforce).

Though, of course, there are many bodies of law that exist side-by-side, states & federal, such as criminal law. A criminal could be convicted of both state theft/fraud crimes in state court and federal RICO crimes in fed court for the same actions (no, there's no double jeopardy b/t states or fed & state, as they are all separate sovereigns).
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

You're missing one crucial point, which is that when Congress passes many laws it is considered to be an interpretation of their Constitutional power and when the Supreme Court of the U.S. interprets a Constitutional issue it is considered as an interpretation of the Constitution.
I guess you are right. I had not really thought of passing a law was an interpretation of the Constitution.
Case in point, Gonzales v. Raich, where California's Compassionate Use Act, which legalized medical marijuana, was in conflict with the federal Controlled Substances Act. Guess what happened? Federal law, held to have been a valid use of Congress' commerce powers, trumped state law and the DEA can still bust California citizens in California for using medical marijuana (though Holder has now said the DOJ will not strictly enforce).
The Interstate Commerce Clause has been interpreted so loosely that a farmer in FDR's Administration who grew crops for his own use on his own farm was subject to Federal crop-limitations, even if he was not going to engage in interstate commerce (the theory being that, by growing his own, he woldn't be buying on the interstate market, and therefor influencing interstate commerce). One wonders what Madison would have made of that construction of the commerce clause, although Hamilton would have probably approved.
Though, of course, there are many bodies of law that exist side-by-side, states & federal, such as criminal law. A criminal could be convicted of both state theft/fraud crimes in state court and federal RICO crimes in fed court for the same actions (no, there's no double jeopardy b/t states or fed & state, as they are all separate sovereigns).
I'm not disagreeing with you but that always smelled of double jeopardy, plus, the procedures at Federal criminal trials appear to be more stacked in favor of the prosecution. Off topic, but a lawyer friend of mine (UVa law grad), during the Michael Vick thing told me Federal criminal procedures are more unfavorable toward the defendant. When Vick was first charged, and his team of lawyers said they were going to fight it in court, then the Federal charges were filed, my friend told me, "Just wait, Vick will fire these jokers, hire serious lawyers and get the best plea bargain he can." And so it was.
 

Giant Squid

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

Great discussion here. I should really use this case as an example of incorporation and current issues surrounding the 2nd Amendment in my class.
 

cbi1972

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
State laws trump federal laws, not the other way around.
This phrase to me says the Constitution is supreme.
(Nothing in the Constitution or in any state law shall be construed to mean that the Constitution is not supreme.)
 

Tidewater

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Re: Hight Court hears huge 2nd amendment case today

This phrase to me says the Constitution is supreme.
(Nothing in the Constitution or in any state law shall be construed to mean that the Constitution is not supreme.)
True.
As long as we don't confuse the Constitution and the Federal government. I've had people explicitly tell me the Federal government is supreme.
The Constitution is supreme over the Federal government as well as state governments. Indeed, the sovereigns in these United States, the people of the states, by ratifying the Constitution, created the Federal government. It is the responsibility of the Federal government to abide by the provisions of the Constitution, not vice versa.
 

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