Anor, Gondor, and Boromir

bobstod · Apr 13, 2001

The history of the Numeranian kings is embedded in this story all the way to the end, but it is so scattered and reaches us from so many sources that we fail to truly understand it until about the fifth or sixth reading, if I am any example.

The lineage of Aragorn, son of Arathorn; the history of the sword Narsil, handed down through the generations to him; and the significance of this progression to the inhabitants (and rulers) of Gondor, is essential to understanding the majesty of this tale.

What is Anor, and how does it relate to Gondor?

Who is Boromir? Who is his father? Why does he rule in Gondor?

Remember the song of Luthien, and Beren, and their love? She, an elven Queen; he, a man. What relationship do they bear to Strider?

Who were Isildur and Elendil?

Many of these personalities only appear in our story as long-remembered legends or in poem or song. Yet they are a part of the tapestry, and without understanding how they fit, the whole conduct of the war against Sauron loses its magnificence.

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LTBF · Apr 13, 2001

Although the name of the sword Narsil is not given in Ch 4 (?), I take it that Narsil is the sword that Strider displays, broken off near the hilt, and about which he says that it will "soon be reforged." Narsil is perhaps the first hint as to who Strider the Ranger really is.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!

CapstoneStan · Apr 13, 2001

I want to participate in this discussion without re-reading the books just now. I only completed reading them in early January and as you can guess with so much nuance and information, some of it is already unclear. Boromir was the son of the steward of Gondor. I cannot recall his name at the moment. The stewards took over the ruling of Gondor in the absence of the Kings from whom Aragorn was descended. Boromir also had a brother named Faramir.

Isuldir was the personage who cut the ring from Sauron's hand. I believe Elendil was his brother who fought and killed him over it causing it to be lost in the river for Gollum (Smeagol) to come into possession of it. I hope I have all that correct. I may have to re-read them to keep up, even though it has only been a short while.

porkchop · Apr 13, 2001

This is for you LTBF.

Anduril: Taken from the Tolkein Companion

The sword of Aragorn and greatest heirloom of the House of Elendil. So named after it's reforging by the Elven-smiths of Rivendell. It's name means, "Flame of the West".
Upon the blade were many engravings including the 7 stars which represent high kingship. Also the Sun and Moon which represent the twin realms of Gondor and Arnor.

Thanks for bringing that up. I had completely forgotten the sword was originally Elendil's sword Narsil. I was thinking it was named Anduril the whole time.
Stan, you are pretty much on target except for the way Isildure was killed. His party was ambushed by Orcs near the Gladden feilds and he put the ring on to hide and in doing so it slipped from his finger and floated to the bottom of the river. The Orcs then killed him (he was no longer invisible).
I know that Smeagol killed his (cousin??) Deagol for the ring. I don't remember a clash between Elendil and Isildure. Not that I'm saying you are wrong. I will have to go back and re-read that.

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I TAUGHT KURT WARNER
HOW TO THROW

[This message has been edited by porkchop (edited April 13, 2001).]

LTBF · Apr 13, 2001

I had not read LOTR for at least 10 years when I recently began reading it anew. And I do mean anew, not again. It is amazing what I see now that I didn't see before, or that I had completely forgotten.

And having people to discuss my ideas with makes it so much more fun to read. I keep marking places that I want to discuss. I'll get to some of those things a little bit later.

However, having said that, I have to say that overall, I remember more about LOTR than almost any book I ever read. That just shows what an impression it made on me.

There have been times when I checked a book out of the library, began reading, and then thought, "This sure does seem familiar." Then I would dredge my memory, and recollect that I had read it before. It obviously did not make much of an impression on me.

Chop, I remembered a little about the swords, but basically had forgotten all about their history. Now I catch every reference to them.

I have just read the part where the dark riders attack Frodo on Weathertop, and he slashed at the bottom of the robe of one of them. The slashed robe is found the next day when it is light. The little sword seemed to have gleamed red when he tried to defend himself with it. Is this Sting, from The Hobbit? The point is made that if your blade enters the body of one of the Riders, it just dissolves. Since Frodo's blade is found beneath him, not dissolved, I take it that the robe cannot do this kind of damage. Or is the point that this is a fairy blade, and so immune from the evil of the Riders?

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!

CapstoneStan · Apr 13, 2001

Hey Chop, What you say makes sense. I do know that Smeagol killed Deagol for the ring. I probably added that to the Isuldur part of the tale on my own. With so many subplots its easy to get part of them wrong.

porkchop · Apr 13, 2001

O.K. here's my take on the realms of Arnor and Gondor. We'll try to put it into something of a timeline or outline to make it easier to understand. It gets hairy, but I won't go into detail.

Arnor and Gondor were sister realms of the same kingdom. Almost like Ithilien, Lamadon, Lossarnach are realms within Gondor that make up the Kingdom (or realm) of Gondor. You'll see all that in book 3.
Elendil was the ruler of this vast Kingdom, and he ruled from a city in Arnor, the northern realm.
His sons, Isildure and ??? co-ruled Gondor, yet were under the rule of Elendil as the high king. Kind of like governers.
What partains to us most is this:

Isildure left Gondor to make the trek northward to Arnor and receive the crown that his father had worn as high king. During his trek he was waylayed by Orcs at the Gladden Fields. This is when the Ring was lost into the great river.

The kingdom then had no heir. Future kings ruled each realm as their own. The realm of Arnor even dissolved into 3 seperate realms. So what you were left with was:

Cardolan, Arnor, Arthidain?? in the north.

Gondor in the south.

Eventually Sauron's forces overran Eriador, largly with the help of the Witch King of Angmar. Remember, this is Sauron's right hand man. He set up the Kingdom of Angmar just north and east of the 3 realms. Eriador is the region in which the 3 ralms were located. Also located in this region are Hobbiton, Rivendell, and Bree.
That explains why the north is so desolate. Only in Gondor did the kingdom survive.

And that brings us to the beginning of the book LOTR.

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I TAUGHT KURT WARNER
HOW TO THROW

bobstod · Apr 16, 2001

In fact, Tolkein recounts the history of the Numeranian Kings further back than Arnor and Gondor.

In the first Great War, when the elves faced the Dark Power, a race of men, the Edain, joined forces with the elves and gave faithful and valuable service.

They were rewarded with an Island in the Western Seas, alomost to the Uttermost West, the home of the elves. They lived there for generations, only returning to Middle Earth sometime in the Second Age.

It is from this line of Kings that Elendil and Isildur, and therefore Aragorn, are descended.

The Steward King of Gondor is named Denethor, and his sons are Boromir and Faramir. It must be understood that the Stewards rule only until the Return of the King (thus the title of the last book of the trilogy)

The history of the Numeranian Kings is discussed in at least two different places in the Appendix. I have only laid out the VERY bare bones here.

It is typical, however, of the depth to which JRRT went in constructing Middle Earth and the tale of the quest.

Knowing the long and proud history of the line from which Aragorn descends adds majesty to the story of his return to claim the throne of Gondor.

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football

LTBF · Apr 18, 2001

Yes, the story is widely scattered, but must be pieced together to form a whole for complete comprehension. After X readings, I am still piecing, almost like a quilt.

Elendil the Tall and his sons, Isildur and Anarion, became great Lords in Middle Earth. They established a northern realm in Arnor and a southern realm in Gondor, under the high-kingship of Elendil.

They were engulfed in war when Sauron assailed them. They made the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men", and the hosts of Gil-Galad (an Elven King) and Elendil were called upon to fight against the Dark Lord.

Elrond says the HE was a herald for Gil-Galhad, and saw him die (of course, Elves cannot die natural deaths, but can be killed). He saw Elendil fall and Narsil break beneath him.

Sauron was overthrown, though at terrible cost, and Isildur cut the Ring from his finger with the hilt of his father's sword.
Both Cirdan, the shipwright, and Elrond, who were the only two left fighting when the Ring was taken, begged Isildur not to keep the Ring, but to cast it into the river and let it flow out to sea, never to be seen again.

His obstinate refusal to do this cost him his life and thus came the nickname "Isildur's Bane."

The Ring as we know was then buried in the river for untold ages before Gollum found it. It was lost, but not UNMADE. It cannot be destroyed, only UNMADE.

Boromir does seem to show his hand at the Counsel of Elrond, when he learns the history of all that has happened. Perhaps at that moment he forms his fiendish plan to take the Ring, for good purposes of course, and save "his" kingdom from Sauron. Little does he know!

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!

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Anor, Gondor, and Boromir

bobstod

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LTBF

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CapstoneStan

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porkchop

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porkchop

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bobstod

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