The "Benevolent Universe" theme...

LTBF

1st Team
Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
CLM, I'll second that! I can hardly bear to even read the Non-Sports board because the people are so combative and so close-minded.

I like to be able to discuss things with more light and less heat!

This is my first stop too. I can hardly wait to see what somebody has come up with!

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

Ratatosk

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Apr 22, 2001
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In many mythologies the protagonist cannot excape his fate even when he knows what it is and struggles against it.

Perhaps it is the destiny of the Ring to be unmade. All efforts of the Ring to reach its master result in good because good brings the Ring closer to its fate. it is struggling against its destiny. Which leaves a question mark as to whether the universe is ultimately benevolent.
 

bobstod

All-American
Oct 13, 1999
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Sorry, ratatosk, you're going to have to clarify that one. Since the Ring is not a character, it is not the protagonist struggling against its fate. Since, in spite of every device of the Dark Power, the Ring cannot be stayed from the fire, which serves to defeat evil, the universe seems, to me, benevolent.

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football
 

LTBF

1st Team
Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
Here is an example of a kindness bestowed. How, or even if, it comes back to repay the giver, I cannot remember. I will be watching, though, to see if it happens.

"No orcs remained alive; their bodies were uncounted. But a great many of the hillmen had given themselves up; and they were afraid, and cried for mercy.

"The Men of the Mark took their weapons from them, and set them to work.

" 'Help now to repair the evil in which you have joined,' said Erkenbrand, and afterwards you shall take an oath never again to pass the Fords of Isen in arms, nor to march with the enemies of Men; and then you shall go free, back to your land....' "

It turns out that the men of Dunland had been deceived by Saruman to believe that the men of Rohan were cruel and burned their enemies alive.

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

Ratatosk

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Apr 22, 2001
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Perhaps I should have prefaced my previous post with "This is intended to be pure speculation." It was meant to open a question for discussion. I started the paragraph with "perhaps" to suggest an uncertainty, not an answer. Since I haven't finished LOTR, I am working on incomplete knowledge and I am sure I will need to read it more than once anyway.

The Ring, while not a character, has some power itself, or a power behind it. It seems to slip on and off fingers in ways that tend to bring it back to its master. Against all odds, Bilbo finds it in a dark cavern. While at THE PRANCING PONY, Frodo accidentally slips the ring on at the most inopportune time. It's almost as though the ring has a mind of it's own. Sometimes in fantasy, inannimate objects do.

If you believe in fate, then no effort will return the ring to its master because its destiny is to be unmade(or it is the Dark Lord's destiny to loose the ring and suffer defeat). If you believe in a Benevolent Universe then the Ring will still be unmade and the Dark Lord will still be defeated. Of course the Benevolent Universe will always produce good while fate is indifferent.

When contrasting theories exist, the scientist will rely on observation and experiment, the scholar will return to his sources and the relegious man will turn to his faith. We can turn to our faith, or Like scholars, we can to go back to the source: to Tolkien's universe. At this point, with my limited knowledge of LOTR, the fact that Tom Bombadil exists tilts Tolkien's creation toward a benevolent universe.

My knowledge is too limited to say more. I have to finish the entire trilogy and perhaps even read the other books.
 

bobstod

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Oct 13, 1999
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Wow! Excellent post, CLM! What was that garbage you said earlier about everybody else being so profound?

It may be that I am unconciously infusing Middle Earth with my own faith-based ideas about a Benevolent Universe.

Still, returning to the sources like scholars, I think we can find ample evidence that JRRT envisioned a Benevolent Universe, too!

As a matter of fact, Gandalf makes a point for my case in Fangorn when he is conversing with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. He points out that Saruman, in his evil intent to capture Frodo and the Ring, inadvertently brings Merry and Pippin "by the swiftest way" to Fangorn, where their presence tilts the scale of Treebeard's mind. The result is the destruction of Orthanc!

First direct statement of the "Benevolent Universe theme!!:

Gandalf..."Yet a treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand.

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football



[This message has been edited by bobstod (edited April 30, 2001).]
 

BamaCLM

Scout Team
Jan 28, 2000
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Selma,AL
What did I say? What did I say? Are you sure you don't mean Rat...oh shoot, can't think how to spell his name; he made the last post.
 

LTBF

1st Team
Oct 13, 1999
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B'ham,
Bob, I think you DO mean Ratotosk. I didn't see a recent post by CLM. Rat's (how about that for shortening names?) was the most recent, just previous to yours. Unless there is a lost post.

Check back and let us know!

ROLL TIDE FOREVER!
 

bobstod

All-American
Oct 13, 1999
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Yes, you guys are right. Sorry, ratatosk! Excellent post, good reasoning.

I still think you are sharper than you admit, CLM!

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ALABAMA: Tradition; Class; A name to respect in College Football
 

Ratatosk

Scout Team
Apr 22, 2001
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I posted. "Proof that the Benevolent Universe exists" as a new topic. I should have put it here. So in order to get it where it belongs, I am going to duplicate it here. Sorry about the mixup.

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I'm bouncing around a bit in my reading(fortunately, I don't have The Hobbit yet). I was going to wait to read The Silmarillion but I picked it up and couldn't put it down. At the end of chapter 1 of the Quenta Silmarillion I found this:

"But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do rebounds at the end only to the glory of my work.'"

Eru(Iluvatar) made Ea,the material universe. If he says it is, it is.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

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bobstod

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Oct 13, 1999
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Another direct statement of the B.U. Theme!

Chapter X, "The Voice of Saruman"
Gandalf, to Pippin, outside Orthanc (following the recovery of the Palantir):

"Still, for us things have not gone badly. Strange are the turns of fortune! Often does hatred hurt itself!
 

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