Who would you guys like to see the SEC add to fill out a 16 team conference?

KrAzY3

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I find it unlikely that very liberal membership of the current Pac-12 is interesting in BYU. It would be easier to get into the Big-XII for them. The Big-XII has a Methodist and Baptist private school already.
I can recall four teams supposedly on the Big 12's list, when they were trying to right the ship, keep their TV deal and all of that.
1: Louisville - Not sure how close this deal was happening, but clearly they still want out.
2: Arkansas - Kind of laughable, in the past some powers that be at Arkansas had expressed interest in the Big 12, but jumping on a sinking ship?
3: Notre Dame - Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of the Big 12, but there has been communication.
4: BYU - My understanding is that the TV partners did not want BYU, they might very well have been added otherwise.

As to the Pac-12, either they add some really sub-par programs, they stay at 12, or the Big 12 falls apart. That's really all there is to it from what I can see. The interesting thing is I don't really recall anything about FSU, Clemson, or Miami. It sounds like those guys really don't like something about the ACC's TV deal (they have to really dislike it to go for the Big 12's we give all our money to Texas and OU policy).
 

rgw

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Mormonism is the fast growing denomination in the United States and Utah is one of the fastest growing states in the nation. I don't think the Big-XII should outright ignore them. They're a good fit but probably more of "long play" on financial gains. It wouldn't surprise me if BYU ended up like Golden Age Notre Dame in the next few decades.
 

TideEngineer08

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As to the Pac-12, either they add some really sub-par programs, they stay at 12, or the Big 12 falls apart. That's really all there is to it from what I can see. The interesting thing is I don't really recall anything about FSU, Clemson, or Miami. It sounds like those guys really don't like something about the ACC's TV deal (they have to really dislike it to go for the Big 12's we give all our money to Texas and OU policy).
Yeah, and I don't think it's just the amount of money on the new ACC tv deal, but also the prevailing (and likely correct) notion that the basketball schools run that conference. And the football schools bring in most of the tv revenue. I saw some figures that showed something like 70 or 80 percent of the ACC's revenue comes from football. Then, of all the schools, FSU, Clemson, Virginia Tech and Miami contributed to the football revenue far more than any of the other programs. But since the bball schools run things, they feel they are getting short changed on the new tv deal. Add to that the cuts that schools like FSU are having to make, and they feel they'll make a ton more in the Big 12.

And for clarification, the new tv deal for the Big 12 is equal revenue sharing except for tier 3 rights. And, it's supposed to be giving each school about 20 million a piece. Sure, Texas and OU are going to still make more because of those tier 3 rights (Longhorn network, OU network), but the deal is much more equal that it was before the Big 12's breakup.

Also, one of the major holdups for BYU is that they don't play on Sundays. Ever. This affects things like baseball, softball and basketball tournaments. The WAC and MWC always worked around it and the Big 12 might as well. But the PAC 12 will never do that.
 

KrAzY3

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And for clarification, the new tv deal for the Big 12 is equal revenue sharing except for tier 3 rights. And, it's supposed to be giving each school about 20 million a piece. Sure, Texas and OU are going to still make more because of those tier 3 rights (Longhorn network, OU network), but the deal is much more equal that it was before the Big 12's breakup.
I'm just going from recollection, but I was under the impression that the new deal they cut did up the revenue but they relied on a few things to reach that 20 million number, including exit fees. I also, was under the impression that it still only went out to a few select programs, including Texas A&M (cutting them in on the larger share so they'd stay).

I'm looking now and it appears they were able to work some stuff out with their old deal, which is what I was recalling but this new deal apparently doesn't even fully come into play for a few years. To sum it up, they did an band-aid job on the old deal to save the Big 12, and it looks like the brand new deal, from this year will go into full effect in 2016. So, another move of desperation, but by doing that they have apparently righted the ship. It's still a bit perplexing that they can swing that, but from what I recall, it was stated that back when they were about to see Texas and company leave for the Pac-12, some entities stepped in to help negotiate things and keep things together. The explanation was that these unnamed entities did not want to see the 16 team super conferences.

Anyway, the SEC doesn't share tier 3 either, that's no big deal. The thing that's still hard to stomach and I'm not sure how it related to current deals is how Texas was able to snag a conference game as part of tier 3. That's still mind boggling and might have been the single biggest reason Texas A&M bolted. I still haven't seen a valid explanation for how they could sell a conference game as part of their network, and I'm still perplexed as to how that can be considered tier 3.

http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2011/07/07/big-12-football-espn-fox-collusion-troubling/
This article delves into that a bit, but there's a lot of weird stuff going on with the Big 12 TV deals...
 

Aggie Scott

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Mormonism is the fast growing denomination in the United States and Utah is one of the fastest growing states in the nation. I don't think the Big-XII should outright ignore them. They're a good fit but probably more of "long play" on financial gains. It wouldn't surprise me if BYU ended up like Golden Age Notre Dame in the next few decades.
If you add BYU to the Big 12, geographically they would be in the shape of a longhorn! WV and BYU would be the tip of the horns, it's perfect for the whorn conference! Thank you Lord for getting us out of there!
 

KJ in VA

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Hi - I am an NCSU alum and fan who now lives in northern Virginia. So, I am familiar with this part of the country.

Several remarks.

1 - Virginia Tech is more popular in sports than UVa. In Fairfax County VA, I see a lot more VT fans (shirts, hats, bumper stickers, car and house flags). VT has 66,000+ fans at football games on average, UVa has 45,000+ fans on average. UVa is more northeastern in attitude toward sports; meaning, more like Maryland, Rutgers etc. Their student body and alumni body also have strong skews toward the northeast. VT, by contrast, has more alumni living in the state and in the DC area, and has more of a football mentality. Given the choice, the SEC would definitely be better off with VT than UVa if the goal is to add high-value programs and fan bases. If the goal is to add a decent fanbase and a team that's easy to beat, you'd be better off with UVa.

2 - NCSU vs UNC is a similar situation, though not as extreme. NCSU has more rabid fans, because its student and alumni bodies skew male, and more of its alumni live in the state, particularly in the Raleigh metro area. NCSU has 34k students, UNC has 29k students. NCSU alumni earn more early in their career and mid-career according to published national surveys, probably because NCSU focuses on engineering and other technical majors. NCSU has better attendance at home, on the road, for spring games, in bowls. NCSU's crowds are also louder and more knowledgeable, while UNC's crowd has a much higher percentage of girls who are there as a social scene, showing up in the second quarter and leaving in the third quarter. Lest you think I'm joking: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html

3 - NCSU has a 57k football stadium, which it fills for almost every game, and a 20k basketball arena, which is filled for big games. NCSU has also beaten UNC four times in a row in football, and is a contender for its division title this year. UNC is banned from the postseason this year, but probably wouldn't make a bowl anyway. Its faculty is also clamping down on a long list of academic shenanigans that helped them recruit well over the past few years (mainly, no-show classes and the consequent ability to advertise a 100% graduation rate).

4 - In case anybody's wondering, Duke averages under 29,000 fans in the stands for home football games, and that includes visitors from nearby UNC, NCSU, VT, Clemson, Wake, ECU. Duke is an absolute joke in football, though obviously they're great in basketball. Speaking of which:

5 - UNC is a crown jewel in basketball, I'll admit that. But NCSU is no slouch either. We made the Sweet Sixteen last year, and are the general favorite to win the ACC this year. Most early polls have us in the national top 10. Our freshman class includes three McDonald's All-Americans.

6 - In terms of politics: NCSU's chancellor has authority to change athletic conferences. He answers to the school's Board of Trustees. The governing body for the 16-campus university system is the Board of Governors. They have no official role in such matters, but could choose to make life difficult for NCSU if they leave UNC in a lurch. Contrary to what I have seen on some boards, the Board of Governors is not directly affiliated with the Tar Heels. The reason for the confusion is that the system overall is known as the UNC System, of which UNC-CH, NCSU, ECU etc are member institutions. No one school is officially designated as a "flagship" though unofficially, UNC-CH and NCSU are co-flagships with parallel paygrades and status.

Take it for what it's worth ... I have my own set of biases ...
 
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GrayTide

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Very good post KJ and IMO spot on. If you can find my post in all these threads you will see I said early on if the SEC ventured into the ACC that NCSU and Va Tech would be good additions. While I like UNC in basketball, they do not bring anything to the table fron a football perspective, pretty much the same for UVA. I do believe the SEC will look eastward for future expansion and I believe NCSU and Va Tech would be the best options.
 

CullmanTide

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Very good post KJ and IMO spot on. If you can find my post in all these threads you will see I said early on if the SEC ventured into the ACC that NCSU and Va Tech would be good additions. While I like UNC in basketball, they do not bring anything to the table fron a football perspective, pretty much the same for UVA. I do believe the SEC will look eastward for future expansion and I believe NCSU and Va Tech would be the best options.
I agree 100% GT.
 

KrAzY3

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First, I have to address the "need" to add more football powers. As I allude to additions that could better the conference, I'm sometimes countered by people counting off the SEC BCS championships. Well, it's not the answer to everything, but when you have 5 different programs win a BCS championship it does tell you that the conference has the football powers it needs to compete. The idea that how good a football program should be the measuring stick to an addition, is kind of like a team with an all-pro quarterback evaluating a high profile free agent on how good a quarterback he is. That is almost irrelevant, the question is how well can they contribute in other categories?

The SEC with the addition of Texas A&M has 7 of the top 20 all time football programs! This means, even in the four 16 team super conference scenario, the SEC already has more than their share of elite programs! The idea that they'd need 8 or 9 of the top 20 is plain silly. So, when considering a program, how good they are at football in terms of the SEC's needs is like trying to figure out how much sugar to add to sugar to make a cake.

Having said that, the balance has shifted to the West. The West has an all time ranking of 18, mind you that's 7 teams that average 18th. Anyone that thinks one more football power belongs there is on something pretty strong. The East on the other hand "only" averages 33. Even if you swap out Vanderbilt for Auburn (which makes sense geographically), you still end up with a pretty big imbalance. So, in that regard adding a football power to the East could balance things out a bit more, but it would in total make an already insane SoS go even higher.

To the people that use the steel sharpens steel quote and all of that, remember Utah and Alabama in 2008. I don't think most of us legitimately think Utah was a better team. So what happened? Alabama was exhausted at that point and Utah was focused. We both know who played the tougher schedule, but Utah if anything benefited from their lack of difficult games. Saban has alluded to this before, stating that a team can only get up for so many big games a year.

So, talking about how good a football program has done as a measure of their value to current SEC teams is like talking about how fast a guy runs, who you are hiring as a race car driver. That's not what it can be about. But, prestige does matter a bit. If you're talking about a Notre Dame, Ohio St., or even Texas, what they are as a program goes beyond just what they do on the football field because of their prestige. Let's not fool ourselves though, there's no football program in Virginia or North Carolina with prestige.

In regards to North Carolina and NC State, there is just no real comparison. Looking at attendance figures from last year, NC St. managed 237 more per game. Both had a very respectable 56K, putting them in a virtual tie with supposed football power West Virginia, and only 1K behind Okie St. They even had similar records. As football powers? Neither really have merit, NC is is 46th, NC State is 68th. NC State is a great earner in basketball, this I know. But, when we're talking about North Carolina, we're talking about true prestige in basketball. Psychologically, if the Big 10 gets NC and the SEC gets NC State, the SEC is the clear loser, and they'll be losing a few bucks in the bargain. I would not mind NC State as an addition, but I would mind it if NC then goes to the Big 10.

Virginia and Virginia Tech is not as clear cut. The problem I have with Tech is that almost all their worth is in the notion that they are a football power. They're 60th all time. That puts them 7 whole spots ahead of Virginia. My concern is that all of this value is built on Beamer's run of 8 straight ten win seasons. That, I can assure you, will not continue in the SEC. So, what then? What value is if they revert to their origins once Beamer is gone? They'd clearly become bottom tier in the SEC and what of their 66K stadium then (mind you, some thought that A&M who averaged 87K wasn't good enough for the SEC)? So, I'm befuddled by VT's selling point as a football power, when historically speaking they'd be the worst SEC program in football. I do understand, that they currently are more popular, considering the streak of 10 win seasons and the fact that Virginia hasn't won 10 games since 1989. But, once again that's likely to change in the SEC, and what if it doesn't? What of South Carolina (who averaged 13K more than VT), or Kentucky if they just get pushed lower on the totem pole?

I wanted to see how VT did on a down year, so I went as far back as I could, to 1997. That year, VT was 7-5. Virginia was 7-4. VT averaged 43,176 and Virginia averaged 41,514. This was well into an impressive run by Beamer, but then again Virginia was doing half-way decent as well. So, all this really tells me is that both programs in terms of football really are not quite SEC level. But, I think VT carries all the risk with them. We can't really be sure how VT would do if they struggle, we know the SEC needs no more football powers, so certainly if VT arrives someone will struggle. On the other hand, we know Virginia will get a decent amount of support even if they stink things up, which they are capable of doing. I'll admit this though, I could go either way. If NC was on board, I'd be fine with VT as the other team and I'd hope they do fill the void that would exist between Kentucky, Vanderbilt, and North Carolina and UT, Florida and Georgia. It also goes back to another sort of prestige. Virginia, in the world of academia has more value. They are ranked 25th, VT is ranked 71st. The reasons Virginia might not want to join are the same reasons they'd be a better addition.

My main concern though is that the SEC ends up on the short end of the stick. We already know Notre Dame is more likely to join the Big 10. Well, if the Big 10 gets the main programs in North Carolina and Virginia on top of that, well that's bad in terms of their power and wealth. The SEC would be getting leftovers in VT and NC State and on top of that, they'd probably have a tougher time with SoS, while the elites in the Big 10 could sink their teeth into a couple programs that probably won't put up much of a fight.

The SEC is not just in a position to get additions that have their own merit, they need additions that clearly better their financial situation. I think we can all agree that any combination of VT, Virginia, NC and NC State that moves the SEC into North Carolina and Virginia both, would meet that criteria. However, they are also in a power struggle with the Big 10. The Big 10 hates the SEC, the Big 10 wants an anti-SEC post season. The Big 10 wants to monopolize the biggest bowl game. The Big 10 distributes the most money. They are clearly the enemy and in that regard, the SEC needs to compete on all fronts with the Big 10.

If the SEC was able to add NC and Virginia, it would be a win financially, academically, and psychologically. Obviously, the inverse is true if the Big 10 is the one that ends up with those two.
 
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GrayTide

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Krazy, granted UVA is a fine academic institution, but it's athletic programs historically, except for the Ralph Sampson years, are on par with Ole Miss. I agree that UNC would be a great add, but UVA doesn't bring much to the party.
 

TideEngineer08

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Krazy, granted UVA is a fine academic institution, but it's athletic programs historically, except for the Ralph Sampson years, are on par with Ole Miss. I agree that UNC would be a great add, but UVA doesn't bring much to the party.
George Welsh had a nice run at Virginia, but Johnny Vaught had a much better run at Ole Miss now that I think of it. So you're pretty accurate in your description.

I think Virginia Tech has a solid foundation built and, assuming they don't botch hiring Beamer's replacement when the time comes, they should be ok. This isn't Vanderbilt we're talking about here. The state of Virginia puts out a lot of good high school football players. Virginia Tech's fan base is far more "SEC-like" than Virginia. And quite frankly, the whole academic superiority thing is very overrated. Those schools ain't bring tv dollars to the table. And that's all this is about.

As for NC State vs. North Carolina.... I'm not too thrilled about either. But culturally, NC State definitely fits in the SEC better than UNC. UNC is basketball royalty and they also carry that faux academic superiority complex with them. And that's why they'll never join the SEC.

Given their choice, North Carolina and Virginia would choose the Big Ten every single time over the SEC because of the academic angle. So it's really no use debating. The only way the SEC gets them is if the Big Ten doesn't want them. Same goes for Notre Dame. Actually, the only way the SEC gets Notre Dame is if the Big Ten, ACC, Big East, Big 12 and Pac 12 doesn't want them and independence is no longer viable. And given those circumstances, they may well just retire their football program.
 

KrAzY3

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Krazy, granted UVA is a fine academic institution, but it's athletic programs historically, except for the Ralph Sampson years, are on par with Ole Miss. I agree that UNC would be a great add, but UVA doesn't bring much to the party.
I was thinking things through a bit and I'd agree with most of what you said.

Aside from Beamer's run, neither school seems to really have much to contribute athletically. I think most of their value lies in what they'd bring to the table via potential network subscribers (8 million in Virginia) and just the geographic territory. I guess the way I look at it is at least Virginia is the flagship and at least they have great academics. Honestly though, the more I think about it the less enthusiastic I am about either school because, well are people from Virginia just bad at sports or something? Right now, I'd put North Carolina well ahead of both Virginia schools and Notre Dame well ahead of North Carolina.
 

KJ in VA

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I was thinking things through a bit and I'd agree with most of what you said.

Aside from Beamer's run, neither school seems to really have much to contribute athletically. I think most of their value lies in what they'd bring to the table via potential network subscribers (8 million in Virginia) and just the geographic territory. I guess the way I look at it is at least Virginia is the flagship and at least they have great academics. Honestly though, the more I think about it the less enthusiastic I am about either school because, well are people from Virginia just bad at sports or something? Right now, I'd put North Carolina well ahead of both Virginia schools and Notre Dame well ahead of North Carolina.
You've referred to UVa and UNC as "flagship" schools a couple of times. To me, a "flagship" campus is a campus that sits at a unique position in terms of funding, supported and fed by lesser campuses. That is not the case when comparing UNC and NCSU, or UVa and Virginia Tech. As I described before, NCSU is larger, its alumni earn slightly more money, and the two schools have the same state-funded "level" and faculty payscale. Both refer to themselves as "flagships" or "co-flagships", though the state and the UNC System do not term any school a "flagship." I will add in fairness that UNC receives more grant funding and has a higher endowment, since they are the much older university. NCSU did not become a university until the 1960s, and did not surpass UNC in enrollment until circa 1980. Most demographic trends are on NCSU's side.

UVa and VT are not even in the same university system. VT football has far more fans and is the dominant program in the state. UVa football has had some good years here and there, but has never enjoyed major support. You wondered earlier if people in Virginia are bad at sports. Virginia's problem is that Washington DC contains a lot of pro teams, so Virginia media and fan interest is much less directed toward college sports than it is in most SEC states. That said, among those who do care about college football, I would say in the DC area that the most popular school is Virginia Tech, followed by West Virginia, Penn State, Maryland and UVa.
 
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