You Make the Call - Oct 13

tidehawk · Oct 13, 2004

This is a good one:

With 4 seconds to go in the game and the score 7-6 in favor of Team White, it is second and goal for Team Red at White's 6 yd line. Red's pass in the end zone is intercepted by White and returned to his 30 yd line. Following the interception and during the run, there is clipping in the end zone by White. Time expired during the run. What are the options given by the referee to Red?

Alanbama27 · Oct 13, 2004

Oh man....that is a good and tough one!

My thoughts are:

First, with a penalty occuring "in the endzone" and "after the change of possession" the options seem to be quite simple.

Team Red has the option of accepting the penalty and taking the safety for a 1 point win or declining the penalty and losing the game as time expired I would assume on the play.

The other obvious option would be that that Team Red accepts the penalty and has a second and goal from the 3 as it would be a 1/2 the distance penalty and they would likely get one shot at the win with a field goal.

The real question is this. With 4 seconds on the clock and down by 1, why was Team Red going for a touchdown and not a field goal and the win?

bamajake · Oct 13, 2004

The crowd would probably never understand this one but here goes:

Red can decline the penalty and it would be White's ball on the 30 and the game would end -- not a likely occurrence. Red could accept the penalty and it would be a safety against White and the period would be extended for one untimed down. Now, with Red ahead by one, White would kick from its own 20. If I were the coach for the Red team, I would tell my players to stand as close to the sideline as they could and as soon as the ball is kicked to get off of the field.

Where did you find this one Hawk?

BayouBama75 · Oct 13, 2004

wild guess

My guess is the options are:
1) decline the penality and the game is over and White wins (bad choice)
2) Red accepts the penality and it is a safety and Red wins (not sure on this one)
3) Red accepts the penality but it is not a safety and white wins...

I think #2.....

A smart defender would have taken a knee in the end zone because the clock would have expired when he intercepted the ball.

UAME · Oct 13, 2004

Guys, I am no rules expert and have no clue on the answer to this question, BUT:

If bamajake is correct that the period would be extended for 1 down (and the free kick follows), I thought that you were allowed to onside kick on the free kick. I'm pretty sure that you can choose to kick from a tee or punt but most teams choose punting for distance/kick coverage advantage. My guess is that we probably never see an onsides because the free kick is done so deep in the kicking team's territory.

I may be wrong, but it's just a thought I had when bamajake said he'd tell his players to basically leave the field.

BamaFlum · Oct 13, 2004

I'll go along with the crowd and say that it is a safety. Other than that, I have no idea!

Red gets the safety. White must free kick. They try an onside kick and pitch the ball around, find a seem and go for the TD! Hey, it could happen!

bamatex82 · Oct 13, 2004

If Red accepts the penalty it is a safety. Now Red is ahead 8-7. However, game can not end on an ACCEPTED penalty. Game is extended by 1 play. Now White has to kick to Red from White's 20yd. I think it is at the 20yd. Where ever HS is supposed to kick off after safeties. It's further back than a standard kick off is all I know.

The other interesting thing is that White has an ever so slim chance of still winning the game. An on side kick or a muffed ball may gain White possesion, but they can't advance it. They have to hope that Red fumbles the ball and then White advances it to the end zone.

bamajake · Oct 13, 2004

Exactly Tex. That's why I said that if I coached the Red team, I would have them stand close to the sideline and simply leave the field when the ball is kicked. If they do that, then there is no possibility of a score by the White team.

Alanbama27 · Oct 13, 2004

It doesn't make sense that you would EVER have a kickoff in

overtime. Therefore, if red accepts the penalty than it is a safety and since White had the ball at the time of the penalty the game could end...because the only time a game can't end or a half can't end is on a DEFENSIVE penalty and in this case it would have been an offensive penalty since White HAD POSSESSION.

Anyway, this one is either very easy and it's a safety, game over or it's very odd.

However, I am still wondering why with 4 seconds left Red would not have kicked a field goal and ended the darn game instead of thowing the ball and chancing an interception or incomplete pass or sack to lose the game. I do realize that this is a Officiating guide, but I still think Hawk could have come up with at least a better scenario than that one...like the Red kicker broke his leg or something! LOL!

wisten · Oct 13, 2004

I say safety, and 1 more untimed play.

bamajake · Oct 13, 2004

A period is extended by an untimed down whenever a penalty (other than for unsportsmanlike conduct or a non-player foul) against either team is accepted when the penalty occurred during the last down. The kick is not part of overtime, it is part of the 4th quarter. If the safety had tied the game, you would have the kick and, unless someone scored, you would then go to overtime.

As far as why they didn't kick a field goal, notice that the score was 7-6 before the play. My guess is that Red didn't have a kicker or he had already missed at least an extra point and the coach didn't have any faith in him.

bamatex82 · Oct 13, 2004

Alanbama27 said:
overtime. Therefore, if red accepts the penalty than it is a safety and since White had the ball at the time of the penalty the game could end...because the only time a game can't end or a half can't end is on a DEFENSIVE penalty and in this case it would have been an offensive penalty since White HAD POSSESSION.

What bamajake said.

PS - I was responding, but realized that bamajake had already answered your question. I didn't really need to hit the submit button, but I was too late. Don't know how to delete a post.

TideHead · Oct 14, 2004

Alanbama27 said:
The real question is this. With 4 seconds on the clock and down by 1, why was Team Red going for a touchdown and not a field goal and the win?

Tidehawk probably forgot to mention that Team Red's coach is Tommy Tubberville! :smile:

tidehawk · Oct 14, 2004

Jake is all over it. Red will definitely accept the foul, because since it was in the endzone it will result in a safety and a 8-7 lead. There will be one untimed down (not part of overtime, but an extension of 4th quarter). White will have a free kick from their 20. Highly unlikely that a score could happen on a free kick from your own 20 yd line.

Next YMTC on Monday morning.

KanBama · Oct 14, 2004

nice one ... I love it when you try to trick us.

BamaFlum · Oct 14, 2004

tidehawk, what options does white have with the kick? Can they on sides it and advance it with pitches? Can the kick deep, hope for a TO and advance it? What can they do?

tidehawk · Oct 14, 2004

Come on now, KanBama...I am not trying to trick anyone. It would be boring to bring up mundane situations. I try to come up with unique situations to make us all think, including myself.

BamaFlum, White would have the same options as they would for a regular kickoff, except they do have the option to punt the ball after a safety. You have to remember, though, that they are kicking, not receiving. It will be mighty tough for them to recover the ball and do a series of pitches. Probably their best option would be to pooch kick and try to recover. The difficulty there is that the kick can not be advanced - it would have to be fumbled by Red. If I were the Red coach, I would tell my hands team to fair catch any kick that was airborne.

bamajake · Oct 14, 2004

Why take a chance Hawk? If I am coaching the Red team, I would have them line up along the sideline and as soon as the ball is kicked, simply leave the field. It doesn't matter what White does then, they can't score. So what if they recover the ball, the game will be over.

tidehawk · Oct 14, 2004

Good point, Jake - that would work. I guess the only thing wrong that might happen is if the kicker was able to kick the ball into the endzone from 80 yds away, but that is highly improbable.

bamajake · Oct 14, 2004

That still wouldn't matter. Remember, as soon as the ball breaks the plane on a kick, it is a touchback. If the receiving team leaves the field, one of three things will happen: 1) the kicking team will recover the kick; 2) the ball will make it to the end zone; or 3) the ball will go out of bounds. If the kickers recover, or pick the ball up, it is a dead ball and the game ends. If it makes it to the end zone, it is a dead ball when it breaks the plane of the goal line and is a touchback and the game ends. If it goes out of bounds, the receiving team would no doubt accept the results of the play and take over at the spot where the ball went out of bounds and the game ends. I'm sure that the fans would think that I had lost my mind when my players left the field, but it would work.

I love discussing situations like these. You were right in an earlier post when you said that the mundane situations wouldn't create any interest, but such as this sure does.

You Make the Call - Oct 13

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