Truth behind the trees at auburn.

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
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The trees will no longer be trees after April 20, 2013. They will be forever famous as they are now in Wikipedia under Live Oaks.
They've wrung a lot of PR out of those miserable trees, which were doomed before Updyke, a Florida native who spent most of his life in Texas ever thought about them. Unfortunately for old Harvey, you can go into a hospital ward and place a gun against the temple of someone minutes from death of cancer and pull the trigger and it's murder. That's his problem. He intervened in the last 2% of the lifespan of those trees...
 

Chukker Veteran

Hall of Fame
Feb 6, 2001
10,587
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The trees' condition and how the owners treated them over the years is beside the point, and certainly doesn't justify them being poisoned.

At the same time, as a Bama fan, I feel no shame or guilt over what the idiot that poisoned them did. And I really don't care what they do to him, or how harshly he's sentenced.

Good riddance to the whole miserable story, trees and all, in my humble opinion.
 

saraelizabethua

1st Team
Feb 3, 2008
664
0
0
Oxford, Mississippi
I don't disagree, but I'm tired of national media and local goons carrying on as if Updyke alone is responsible for those trees going down. This is a chance for decades of Aubies to absolve themselves of years of stupidity.
Updyke committed a crime. Whatever the media says about him is probably deserved.

But I'M tired of national media and logal goons carrying on as if The University of Alabama and its fans are AT ALL responsible for those trees going down.
 
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pigsinspace

1st Team
Jan 26, 2011
609
27
47
What should be intuitively obvious to the casual gardener ... The trees' roots are covered in concrete. Try growing a tree in a flower pot and see how it reacts. The root system on a healthy tree looks similar to a mirror image of the tree above ground. If those roots are not allowed to grow and collect nutrients/water etc, the tree will suffer an impact. Stress those trees with abuse (toilet paper, fire and pressure washing), a constant barrage of vehicle exhaust, elevated temperatures from concrete and asphalt without ventilation, limited nutrients and water to roots and 100 years of barner body fluids ... the trees never stood a chance. Yes, Updyke is an idiot, a criminal and a disgrace but the trees were doomed the day they were planted.
Aren't the trees Live Oaks? There is no good reason to plant Live Oaks anywhere in an urban setting. They are measured by wingspan, so a healthy Live Oak will have limbs reaching out well over 50' from the trunk, with a root system reaching out just as far. Put one on a street corner, and you have to cut back those limbs to keep them from growing into the buildings and causing hazards for any vehicle taller than an SUV. They should plant Crepe Myrtles instead. Those things will grow anywhere and are hard to kill. If you don't trim them, they will get pretty big, too.
 

uaintn

All-American
Aug 2, 2000
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Yes, the trees never had a fighting chance in that spot. And I am heartily sick of hearing about them. I'm more sick of hearing about Harvey. That said, I have trouble believing that the law enforcement and judiciary of Alabama don't have more important things to spend their time on than a guy who put herbicide around some dying trees then bragged about it. A felony? Deliver me.

Wonder how many trees the Yeller Feller's minions cut down in a year?
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
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Aren't the trees Live Oaks? There is no good reason to plant Live Oaks anywhere in an urban setting. They are measured by wingspan, so a healthy Live Oak will have limbs reaching out well over 50' from the trunk, with a root system reaching out just as far. Put one on a street corner, and you have to cut back those limbs to keep them from growing into the buildings and causing hazards for any vehicle taller than an SUV. They should plant Crepe Myrtles instead. Those things will grow anywhere and are hard to kill. If you don't trim them, they will get pretty big, too.
You treated everything except the fact that they were planted far outside their normal range (although the range has expanded somewhat northward because of global warming)...
 

GulfCoastTider

Hall of Fame
Aren't the trees Live Oaks? There is no good reason to plant Live Oaks anywhere in an urban setting. They are measured by wingspan, so a healthy Live Oak will have limbs reaching out well over 50' from the trunk, with a root system reaching out just as far. Put one on a street corner, and you have to cut back those limbs to keep them from growing into the buildings and causing hazards for any vehicle taller than an SUV. They should plant Crepe Myrtles instead. Those things will grow anywhere and are hard to kill. If you don't trim them, they will get pretty big, too.
Yes. The trees are Quercus virginiae. It is an evergreen species of oak that does great in places like New Orleans, south Mississippi, south Alabama and northwest Florida. They also do well in the coastal regions of southern Georgia and South Carolina.

They drop their acorns in fall and leaves in spring and sprout new growth immediately after the last frost of the season.

They don't do well in urban settings and they are not hardy beyond USDA Zone 8 except under pristine growing conditions.

Those trees have been dying a slow death since they started pressure washing them. That corner and that setting is nowhere near "pristine."

While I share Drewy's sentiment regarding Harvey Updyke, all he really did was shove those trees over a precipice they were inching towards since fRan was our coach.
 

BAMA1979

All-American
Nov 15, 2006
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You treated everything except the fact that they were planted far outside their normal range (although the range has expanded somewhat northward because of global warming)...
You are correct, Earle. As I've said in previous threads, those of us who live along the coast see hundreds of live oaks each day and none of them look as unhealthy as those trees have looked for many years. They haven't looked healthy in at least 10 years. They look similar to some of the ones you would see after Ivan and Katrina that were harmed by wind and salt water.

In no way does that excuse the actions of Updyke, but they were on their way out already. If anything it frustrates me more because he didn't need to do it. He may have slightly expedited the process, but they weren't going to be around much longer anyway.
 

BAMA1979

All-American
Nov 15, 2006
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Yes. The trees are Quercus virginiae. It is an evergreen species of oak that does great in places like New Orleans, south Mississippi, south Alabama and northwest Florida. They also do well in the coastal regions of southern Georgia and South Carolina.

They drop their acorns in fall and leaves in spring and sprout new growth immediately after the last frost of the season.

They don't do well in urban settings and they are not hardy beyond USDA Zone 8 except under pristine growing conditions.

Those trees have been dying a slow death since they started pressure washing them. That corner and that setting is nowhere near "pristine."

While I share Drewy's sentiment regarding Harvey Updyke, all he really did was shove those trees over a precipice they were inching towards since fRan was our coach.
Well said.
 

russtang

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Apr 11, 2007
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Forgive my memory but didn't a 'scientist' from Auburn originally say that he detected no poisoning or maybe a marginal, non threatening amount?


Updyke commited at Most a minor misdemeanor and is a bad example of an Alabama football fan, but for anyone to be charged with a felony for these actions is absurd. The barn took full advantage of a PR opportunity and played it to the fullest, most absurd degree.

They are TREES. I mean TREES. How many TREES have you killed in your lifetime? I couldn't tell you but I have worn out many chain saw blades killing TREES myself. Not to mention the 100's of TREES I have Killed clearing land with a bulldozer.

I think the whole ordeal is utterly ridiculous.
 

CrimsonSEC

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Forgive my memory but didn't a 'scientist' from Auburn originally say that he detected no poisoning or maybe a marginal, non threatening amount?


Updyke commited at Most a minor misdemeanor and is a bad example of an Alabama football fan, but for anyone to be charged with a felony for these actions is absurd. The barn took full advantage of a PR opportunity and played it to the fullest, most absurd degree.

They are TREES. I mean TREES. How many TREES have you killed in your lifetime? I couldn't tell you but I have worn out many chain saw blades killing TREES myself. Not to mention the 100's of TREES I have Killed clearing land with a bulldozer.

I think the whole ordeal is utterly ridiculous.
I killed about 8 red and water oaks day before yesterday. They were seedlings from acorns that squirrels tend to bury in my flower beds and hedgerows. Granted they were only two or three feet tall, but I guess you could call me a mass murderer.
 

Crimson1967

Hall of Fame
Nov 22, 2011
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That's my issue with him. I go on other boards and people call us Updykes. Makes me want to puke.
 

gwilliams

1st Team
Aug 29, 2011
462
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Just hear that tree story couple days ago about the "last roll" after their spring game. Prolly some bad news coming soon for AU. They need a new sympathy story, that one is worn out.
 

GulfCoastTider

Hall of Fame
Forgive my memory but didn't a 'scientist' from Auburn originally say that he detected no poisoning or maybe a marginal, non threatening amount?
Why yes, now that you mention it.

Toomer's Oaks are Fine(baum)- Just a Toilet Paper Overdose.
I have been watching all the traffic related to possible poisoning of Toomer's oaks. I heard over the water cooler that someone called into the Paul Finebaum Show claiming they had poisoned the Toomer's oaks with the herbicide Spike. I was very skeptical, but I knew I could quickly determine if this was true. First, never passing up a teachable moment let me do some explaining.


The herbicide in question is sold by the name "Spike", but the active ingredient, the chemical compound that actually kills the plants, is called tebuthiuron. Tebuthiuron is very specific in its action--it essentially blocks photosynthesis from occurring. It is very specific to plants and is safe to humans.


With many herbicides, if one wants to tell if a plant has been purposely treated, one would take soil and leaf samples, extract the herbicide, and run it through some chemical analytical test to determine if the herbicide is present. This process can take weeks. But with tebuthiuron, since it specifically stops photosynthesis, a negative herbicide effect can be determined in a few minutes.


So I took my handy, dandy handheld chlorophyll fluorometer up to Toomer's Corner, clamped it on a few leaves and checked photosynthesis. Everything is fine. It has been two months since the alleged poisoning, and there should be a reduction in photosynthetic activity-- and there is not. Just in case it occurred more recently, Auburn Horticulture has taken some soil and leaf samples for future analysis, if any damage ever appears. For now that is a moot point, the trees are fine, just a little beat up from all the toilet paper clean up. I will keep checking over the next few weeks just to make sure.


To anyone who has had the idea of poisoning Toomer's oaks or killing your neighbor's tree that is blocking your satellite reception--you can easily be caught. Not only can one quickly measure photosynthesis of the plant, but the herbicide will last up to a year in the soil surface and a little longer in the killed plant. It will be very easy to catch you.


- Scott McElroy, PhD
Department of Agronomy and Soils
Twitter: @auburnturf

Original post here.
 

GP for Bama

All-American
Feb 3, 2011
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Doesn't change Harvey Updike's intent one iota. I remain ashamed that he is a fan of my University.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
I agree....I hate that this nutcase destroyed what was important to our rivals in the name of being an "Alabama Fan".
Coach Bryant's mantra of winning and losing with class is important.
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,487
39,557
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Why yes, now that you mention it.

Toomer's Oaks are Fine(baum)- Just a Toilet Paper Overdose.
I have been watching all the traffic related to possible poisoning of Toomer's oaks. I heard over the water cooler that someone called into the Paul Finebaum Show claiming they had poisoned the Toomer's oaks with the herbicide Spike. I was very skeptical, but I knew I could quickly determine if this was true. First, never passing up a teachable moment let me do some explaining.


The herbicide in question is sold by the name "Spike", but the active ingredient, the chemical compound that actually kills the plants, is called tebuthiuron. Tebuthiuron is very specific in its action--it essentially blocks photosynthesis from occurring. It is very specific to plants and is safe to humans.


With many herbicides, if one wants to tell if a plant has been purposely treated, one would take soil and leaf samples, extract the herbicide, and run it through some chemical analytical test to determine if the herbicide is present. This process can take weeks. But with tebuthiuron, since it specifically stops photosynthesis, a negative herbicide effect can be determined in a few minutes.


So I took my handy, dandy handheld chlorophyll fluorometer up to Toomer's Corner, clamped it on a few leaves and checked photosynthesis. Everything is fine. It has been two months since the alleged poisoning, and there should be a reduction in photosynthetic activity-- and there is not. Just in case it occurred more recently, Auburn Horticulture has taken some soil and leaf samples for future analysis, if any damage ever appears. For now that is a moot point, the trees are fine, just a little beat up from all the toilet paper clean up. I will keep checking over the next few weeks just to make sure.


To anyone who has had the idea of poisoning Toomer's oaks or killing your neighbor's tree that is blocking your satellite reception--you can easily be caught. Not only can one quickly measure photosynthesis of the plant, but the herbicide will last up to a year in the soil surface and a little longer in the killed plant. It will be very easy to catch you.


- Scott McElroy, PhD
Department of Agronomy and Soils
Twitter: @auburnturf

Original post here.
Right after the poisoning, I posted some pix of a tree owned by a client of mine. The perp was his next door neighbor, a retired MD. There was not only a brown circle around the two trees, there was a brown streak in the grass, running down towards my neighbor's driveway, which was lower in elevation than the Spike-poisoned tree. Being familiar with Spike and it's effects, I was very skeptical from the outset. My client's trees didn't die slowly like these live oaks. They up and dropped their leaves and died immediately. Of course with live oaks, photosynthesis is just about a year-round process. I'm inclined to believe that their abuse of the trees is the main cause of death...
 

Drewy26

1st Team
Aug 16, 2008
834
13
42
Montgomery, AL
I am on record as clearly stating that I am ashamed that Harvey Updyke is associated with my University in any way. I think he redefines the word loser and I would say that directly to his face.

The law is the law, and here is why the State of Alabama (through the Lee County DA's office) can't convict him of Felony Criminal Mischief, as charged (and as wished for by so many Auburn supporters)

The statute defining Criminal Mischief (Alabama Code §13A-7-20 - §13A-7-23) defines the offense as follows:

"with intent to damage property, and having no right to do so or any reasonable ground to believe that he or she has such a right, he or she inflicts damages to property."

The degree (and therefore the severity of potential punishment) is determined by the value of the property damaged. First Degree Criminal Mischief (Class C Felony) requires damage in excess of $2,500; Second Degree Criminal Mischief (Class A Misdemeanor) requires damage of between $501 and $2,500; and Third Degree Criminal Mischief (Class B Misdemeanor) requires damage not exceeding $500.

How does one determine the value of a tree? Alabama Code §35-14-1 sets the value:

Any person who cuts down, deadens, girdles, boxes, destroys or takes away, if already cut down or fallen, any cypress, pecan, oak, pine, cedar, poplar, walnut, hickory or wild cherry tree, or sapling of that kind, on land not his own, wilfully (sic) and knowingly, without the consent of the owner of the land, must pay to the owner $20.00 for every such tree or sapling; and for every other tree or sapling, not hereinbefore described, so cut down, deadened, girdled, boxed, destroyed or taken away by any person, he must pay to such owner the sum of $10.00. (Code of Alabama, §35-14-1)
Of course, the trees could be defined as "Ornamental trees:"

Any person who cuts down, digs up, girdles, destroys or mutilates any fruit tree or ornamental tree, or shrub, bush or plant which is inclosed on premises not his own, wilfully (sic) and knowingly, without the consent of the owner, must pay to such owner $15.00 for every such tree, shrub or plant. (Code of Alabama, §35-14-2.)

Even under the worst case scenario, Updyke is only guilty of a Class B Misdemeanor, Criminal Mischief, Third Degree.

The maximum punishment for a Class B Misdemeanor is 6 months in jail (Code of Alabama, §13A-5-7) and a fine of not more than $1,000 (Code of Alabama, §13A-5-12.) Considering the time he has spent in jail awaiting his psychological evaluation, he has probably already met or exceeded the maximum jail time possible for his offense.

It seems to me that the Lee County DA overcharged the case. I can't say why this happened but they are now painted into a corner. They can't win a felony conviction at trial, and they can't risk the PR nightmare that would follow if they allowed a plea to a misdemeanor.

The whole thing makes for good theater, but the eventual outcome is obvious, and Auburn supporters won't be happy when Updyke walks out of the Lee County Justice Center free and clear, having served his debt to society.
 
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