Link: Child’s Death in Hot Car Leads to Unusual Murder Charge

TIDE-HSV · Jun 28, 2014

BamainBoston said:
My old criminal law professor, Alan Dershowitz, used to say that all you need for premeditation is for the person to think "I'm going to kill this guy" a split second before they pull the trigger. In this case, unless it's involuntary manslaughter, I would think it's premeditated or nothing. If the guy intentionally left the kid in the car, he did it to kill him.

I agree. It's really black or white in this case. I see no room for any other charge, other than, possibly, negligent manslaughter, which I presume they have there. Again, motive is not a necessary element at all. People kill with no motive whatsoever, randomly. And, with serial killers, there is never a motive other than that they get off on it and feel compelled to keep killing. Maybe you're watching too many crime/lawyer shows.

However, as I tried to explain above, motive can become important in a case like this, just not because it's a necessary element of the crime. If the prosecution doesn't turn one up, then the defense is going to use lack of a motive as a defense - and there'll be a parade of character witnesses. OTOH, if the prosecution turns up that he took out a million dollar life policy on the kid last week or that there's a girlfriend waiting in the wings for him to become single and childless, then motive may again be an important element in the case. It's just that people kill for mindless reasons all the time - and are convicted for it...

selmaborntidefan · Jun 28, 2014

BamainBoston said:
Fascinating man. He told us that the whole team thought that they were going to lose the case, that they had already told OJ that they were going to lose the case, but that there were so many errors during that trial that they were 100% confident any conviction would be overturned. They already had the appeal ready to go.

But no, he never said whether he thought OJ did it.

Last year he said the cops framed a guilty man (e.g. Simpson did it). Of course, Dersh seems to me to be an intelligent and engaging guy, so I honestly don't think even he really believes that. I'm sure he says it for public consumption, but I don't believe he could possibly be that stupid (as any conspiracy to frame in this particular instance - is on the Oliver Stone level of the 27 assassins firing 81 shots to kill JFK).

I also note that not one of OJ's lawyers besides F Lee Bailey has EVER actually said OJ was INNOCENT. They all spout the party line of "the jury found him not guilty." I was upset at the time but given the low level of competence demonstrated by the prosecution, I've at least toned down my despising of the "Scheme Team."

selmaborntidefan · Jun 28, 2014

BamainBoston said:
I do think there was some sweetening of the pot in that case. I think the cops knew OJ did it and tried to strengthen the case. If you look into some of the info that came out about the evidence, there were some strange things. Probably the most interesting was the presence of EDTA--a non-naturally occurring blood preservation chemical that was present on one of the bloody socks.

Actually, that's not interesting at all, since EDTA is:
a) found in WASH DETERGENT (and the only place they were claiming this was....hmmm......the socks)
b) was in so small of an amount that it could not possibly have been from a tube of blood (remember - that's part of what I do)

I'm obviously not accusing you of believing that story, but what's funny is how that was what everyone seized on. It's almost like people WANTED to believe he was framed. But this is literally the only point of objection I've ever heard with any sting to it - and it isn't the Holy Grail folks want it to be.

Now I think we both agree that the prosecution handled that (among other things) poorly.

Relayer · Jun 29, 2014

BamainBoston said:
Which was the prosecutions argument. The way Dersh tells it, none of the detergent in OJ's house had EDTA, so they tried to say it was from something she ate and that's how it got in her blood. Only problem was it wasn't in any of the other blood samples. Now, I don't know whether this was an example of the cops sweetening the pot or not, but the prosecution didn't exactly do a bang up job of dealing with the issues.

I read Vincent Bugliosi's (prosecutor of the Manson family) book, Outrage, on how he would have handled the O J case. I think if anyone could have won the case, he would have.

IM4UA · Jun 29, 2014

Reading now that the boys mother also performed a search about child deaths in a hot car. The searches were performed prior to the tragedy. I am at a complete loss to understand.

NationalTitles18 · Jun 29, 2014

BamainBoston said:
How would they know who specifically performed the search?

Webcam records from the NSA, dontcha know?

TideMom2Boys · Jun 29, 2014

BamainBoston said:
How would they know who specifically performed the search?

She admitted to it, that they both did searches on it. They were both "fearful".

RTR91 · Jun 29, 2014

Here's an update that discusses the mom searching for the information, too.

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2014/06/wife_of_justin_ross_harris_als.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

crimsonaudio · Jun 29, 2014

TideMom2Boys said:
She admitted to it, that they both did searches on it. They were both "guilty".

FIFY

TideMom2Boys · Jun 29, 2014

crimsonaudio said:
FIFY

I would be shocked if they weren't.

TIDE-HSV · Jun 30, 2014

TideMom2Boys said:
I would be shocked if they weren't.

Well, if he had wanted to child out of the way so he could get a divorce, then she might not have been involved. One thing which has bugged me since it came out was his trip back to the car at lunch. The real heat of the day hadn't been reached, by any means. I'm sure the child was dehydrated by then, but I have difficulty not thinking that he was not still alive. He says he opened the driver's door. Is there any way on earth that the child wouldn't have cried out to his daddy? What kind of monster does it take to close that door and walk away?

CoachJeff · Jun 30, 2014

These stories are awful to read about. In this case either the guy is an absolute monster or made the biggest mistake of his life, for which he'll never recover.

I can't decide which is worse.

TommyMac · Jun 30, 2014

TideMom2Boys said:
She admitted to it, that they both did searches on it. They were both "fearful".

Try selling that to a jury.:mad2:

Al A Bama · Jun 30, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
Well, if he had wanted to child out of the way so he could get a divorce, then she might not have been involved. One thing which has bugged me since it came out was his trip back to the car at lunch. The real heat of the day hadn't been reached, by any means. I'm sure the child was dehydrated by then, but I have difficulty not thinking that he was not still alive. He says he opened the driver's door. Is there any way on earth that the child wouldn't have cried out to his daddy? What kind of monster does it take to close that door and walk away?

Has he stated a reason for going to his car at lunch?

Could be that he was trying to determine if he had finished the dirty/evil deed on his son or to determine if more time was needed.

2003TIDE · Jun 30, 2014

My problem with the internet search is this. He graduated from UA with a major in MIS. That's not an easy degree. So, he'd be pretty familiar with computers. I don't think he is an idiot. Idiots don't make it through that program. If it were on purpose, I would expect that he could clean his browser history properly.

On the other side if were an accident, dude researched kids dying in cars because he was afraid it would happen to him. Then he left his kid in the car anyway?

I'm with BamainBoston. I don't know what to think anymore.

jps1983 · Jun 30, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
Well, if he had wanted to child out of the way so he could get a divorce, then she might not have been involved. One thing which has bugged me since it came out was his trip back to the car at lunch. The real heat of the day hadn't been reached, by any means. I'm sure the child was dehydrated by then, but I have difficulty not thinking that he was not still alive. He says he opened the driver's door. Is there any way on earth that the child wouldn't have cried out to his daddy? What kind of monster does it take to close that door and walk away?

I'm not defending the guy. With the internet search, I am leaning to it being purposeful. But if the child was in the car that long, he may have already been unconscious at lunch time. That would've been 4-5 hours by lunchtime. I doubt the child had much, if any, energy. I have no medical knowledge but I figure a small child reacts to extreme conditions much quicker than adults.

92tide · Jun 30, 2014

jps1983 said:
I'm not defending the guy. With the internet search, I am leaning to it being purposeful. But if the child was in the car that long, he may have already been unconscious at lunch time. That would've been 4-5 hours by lunchtime. I doubt the child had much, if any, energy. I have no medical knowledge but I figure a small child reacts to extreme conditions much quicker than adults.

i think that the smell of diaper in a hot car would've been very noticeable.

selmaborntidefan · Jun 30, 2014

92tide said:
i think that the smell of diaper in a hot car would've been very noticeable.

That's a good point, but (and I haven't read anything about what was in the diaper) it's also an assumption. If the kid was dehydrated then a bowel movement is that much more difficult. Just to make clear (and I shouldn't even have to say this): I'm NOT defending anything or anyone here - if you'll pardon the pun this doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

In fact, if you're THAT worried about doing that to your kid then it seems to me you double and triple check - and maybe even get in trouble at work for going back to check again.

Bazza · Jun 30, 2014

I haven't read this entire thread but must say it's unthinkable that a person would be capable of such a despicable act - especially to their own son.

Words fail me....

TIDE-HSV · Jun 30, 2014

Al A Bama said:
Has he stated a reason for going to his car at lunch?

Could be that he was trying to determine if he had finished the dirty/evil deed on his son or to determine if more time was needed.

That's one reasonable construct...

Link: Child’s Death in Hot Car Leads to Unusual Murder Charge

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