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  1. #40
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    This originally came about because carriers were trying to push the "fast lane" model, much like what Comcast did with Netflix. Verizon had sued in court, the FCC chairman rolled over on the issue right before he went to work for them and essentially the FCC went belly up in the face of doing anything with broadband internet. Here is the problem. Everyone here wants to think that the status of the internet providers in the US is just hunky dory. http://theweek.com/article/index/257...ternet-so-slow



    So when the FCC got neutered it became open season. Internet providers have essentially divided up the landscape, much like they do with cable networks, ensuring that most customers only have a choice between crappy internet, and slightly less crappy internet. I guess since it mirrors the political system, most people aren't up in arms.

    But here is the really sinister part. Cable companies have lobbied state legislatures to pass legislation to prevent municipalities in the state from even thinking about starting their own infrastructure.

    A lot of people on here are worried about what happens when the free market is clamped down by the jackboot of government through regulation. I am more worried about the amount of money that has flowed into states to ensure that the cable/internet companies can continue to sell a sub par product to a populace through a veritable monopoly. We don't even have the right to try and make a better product through public means because its illegal. The free market has stifled competition, whether that competition comes from being able to drop prices in a new market or through deep deep legal pockets (http://arstechnica.com/business/2014...really-hard/1/).



    When a city gets tired of having to put up with the fact that the incumbent provider is providing residents with a crappy service and decides to go it on their own, cable providers either lobby to get legislation passed or ties the city up in legal land and prevents the municipality from even starting.

    How in the world can anyone think that the game isn't already rigged is beyond me. This is the antithesis of the free market and how some of you can believe that the cable companies won't continue to tighten the grip is frankly a bit scary. The conditioning to believe that any and everything free market is good, and any and everything government is bad is so ingrained that it is almost impossible to have a legitimate discussion about this kind of stuff because you have already made up your mind.

    Edit: Adding a link to graphically explain net neutrality a little better. The only thing that this leaves out is that ISP's want to charge on both ends for the content. They want consumers to pay to get the high speed access to the various services, as well as getting those services to pay the ISP for preferred lanes/hookups to the ISP's backbone.

    http://www.theopeninter.net/
    I've yet to form an opinion on the broader topic, but as you can suspect, I'm initially suspicious of government regulation and its potential for negative unintended consequences. Anyway, I'll make a couple of small points:

    (1) When state governments create laws that prevent municipalities from building their own infrastructure and providing their own services, that smacks of restraint of trade, not a failing of the free market.

    (2) Personally, I've been very satisfied with the Internet service provided by AT&T Uverse. Maybe if I experienced the problems that some of you seem to be experiencing, I would care more. Right now, Internet service IS like a utility to me -- it's always there and always reliable.

  2. #41
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    why does this keep coming up in this thread

    NET NEUTRALITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COST, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROVIDING FREE OR CHEAP OR SUBSIDIZED INTERNET TO ANYONE.
    I think the point is that it will at some point when it's deemed to be a utility. Utilities for some reason are seen to be essentials in today's United States.

  3. #42
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Tide1986 View Post
    (1) When state governments create laws that prevent municipalities from building their own infrastructure and providing their own services, that smacks of restraint of trade, not a failing of the free market.
    I will agree with a caveat. Technically it is a free market. A company or municipality could attempt to enter the market, yet due to the financial backing of such large companies, they are essentially able to restrict entrance due to the legal system. That coupled with lobbying, for example, when an internet company lobbies a state legislature to ensure no municipalities can start up their own network because it would be deemed to be too tough for the private company to compete, makes this a bit more nuanced. At which point it isn't only restraint of trade, it is the free market being gamed to strengthen the position of the incumbent. You may disassociate the lobbying and legal issues from the free market, but in my opinion you can't have one without the other. It is the current state of the US economy, so we can't argue on the merits of a laissez-faire economy, because we have never been one, and can never get there with the way things are.

  4. #43
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003TIDE View Post
    People are already having to pay more for services due to the broken state of things. You think when Comcast strong-armed Netflix into paying them money customers saved on that one? This is the only way to fix the issue. When you have telcos leaving equipment purposely unplugged at peering points to degrade services of companies on the internet, you can't say with a straight face that a free market system works for the internet.
    Reclassifying as Title II is not the only way. Rules can be made under Section 706. I generally agree with the least restrictive means principle. Government will overstep and go too far. If you give a mouse a cookie....
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  5. #44
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Jon's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    here's a good referenced based article on the subject. 6 reasons real conservatives should defy Republicans and support net neutrality

    http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/10/7...nd-support-net

  6. #45
    BamaNation All-SEC TheAccountant's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Follow the money. Ask yourself why telcom's spend massive amounts of money on lobbying and for what reason?

  7. #46
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Displaced Bama Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAccountant View Post
    Follow the money. Ask yourself why telcom's spend massive amounts of money on lobbying and for what reason?
    Always....it doesn't matter what side of the aisle you are on, follow the money.

  8. #47
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAccountant View Post
    Follow the money. Ask yourself why telcom's spend massive amounts of money on lobbying and for what reason?
    The Telco's don't want this. Their money is spent lobbying against.

  9. #48
    BamaNation All-SEC TheAccountant's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003TIDE View Post
    The Telco's don't want this. Their money is spent lobbying against.
    Ya, that's my point.

  10. #49
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Al A Bama's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Displaced Bama Fan View Post
    What a complete and utter jackhole.

    http://www.cnet.com/news/president-o...free-and-open/
    Actually, it seems that he wants to take away our Freedom of Speech on the internet. That way he can become The Emperor. You know Dictators and Emperors like 100% support from the populace. This way there is no disagreement with their policies or anything else they want to do.

    Are we seeing more lies and deception?
    "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" Patrick Henry

  11. #50
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    The free market has stifled competition,
    Well, it is probably more accurate to say private businesses allied with government has stifled competition.
    All the benefits touted by advocates of this would be true if all men were angels.
    Given how the Federal government has loosely interpreted its powers in the past (e.g. the necessary and proper clause, the general welfare clause and the interstate commerce clause; heck, the Clinton Administration's AG could not name a single area of American life that was not subject to Federal regulation in light of the interstate commerce clause), I would be among the skeptical, but not necessarily opposed. Show me the structural ways that the Federal government would be effectively prevented from abusing the consuming populace and I'd be all ears.
    Plus, given the propensity of the Federal government to abuse the legitimate powers given to it (e.g. IRS) and "crony capitalism" public-private partnerships (e.g. Enron, Solyndra, etc.), one could well come to the conclusion that government abuse of power is not just a necessary evil of government interference, it is the reason parties exist and want to influence governmental policy to begin with.
    Any government power that can be abused to benefit the Federal government overall, or one party in particular, will be. Is there some way the Federal government could abuse designating internet as a public utility? The question answers itself.
    I'd rather the Federal government use the Sherman Anti-Trust Act to prevent collusion by ISPs in restraint of trade to break up internet monopolies.
    I have three ISP options at my house for internet service.
    Last edited by Tidewater; November 11th, 2014 at 12:26 PM. Reason: Changed "Sherman Anti-tryst" to "Sherman Anti-Trust." (Freudian slip?)
    Which provision of the U.S. Constitution authorizes the Federal government to overthrow an elected state government and replace it with an appointed military governor?

  12. #51
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 2003TIDE's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Al A Bama View Post
    Actually, it seems that he wants to take away our Freedom of Speech on the internet. That way he can become The Emperor. You know Dictators and Emperors like 100% support from the populace. This way there is no disagreement with their policies or anything else they want to do.

    Are we seeing more lies and deception?
    Has nothing to so with that and everything to do with the face last mile providers aren't playing nice with backbone ISPs at the peering points. Something has to be done. This is one way. Otherwise Telco's will extort businesses to get in the "fast lane" whatever that means to them.
    Last edited by 2003TIDE; November 11th, 2014 at 12:29 PM.

  13. #52
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    I will agree with a caveat. Technically it is a free market. A company or municipality could attempt to enter the market, yet due to the financial backing of such large companies, they are essentially able to restrict entrance due to the legal system. That coupled with lobbying, for example, when an internet company lobbies a state legislature to ensure no municipalities can start up their own network because it would be deemed to be too tough for the private company to compete, makes this a bit more nuanced. At which point it isn't only restraint of trade, it is the free market being gamed to strengthen the position of the incumbent. You may disassociate the lobbying and legal issues from the free market, but in my opinion you can't have one without the other. It is the current state of the US economy, so we can't argue on the merits of a laissez-faire economy, because we have never been one, and can never get there with the way things are.
    I agree in principle.
    Still, any step away from free trade generates its own problems. Invariably, statists tend to argue that the way to fix these problems is, wait for it, more government restrictions of free trade.
    It seems to me that the pipes on which electrons flow is a natural monopoly. Who regulates how fast they flow (what ISPs seem to desire for their own financial benefit, and the problem the President appears to be seeking to correct) is not. Can we not "utilitize" the pipes and free up who controls how fast electrons flow along those pipes?
    Which provision of the U.S. Constitution authorizes the Federal government to overthrow an elected state government and replace it with an appointed military governor?

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