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  1. #53
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I agree in principle.
    Still, any step away from free trade generates its own problems. Invariably, statists tend to argue that the way to fix these problems is, wait for it, more government restrictions of free trade.
    It seems to me that the pipes on which electrons flow is a natural monopoly. Who regulates how fast they flow (what ISPs seem to desire for their own financial benefit, and the problem the President appears to be seeking to correct) is not. Can we not "utilitize" the pipes and free up who controls how fast electrons flow along those pipes?
    How about an alternative way of looking at it? What if they were able to do something analogous with electricity? For example, the network (power grid) was smart and could determine what you wanted to use the energy for. You agree to pay X$ per KWH. Lets say you bake a lot of cookies. You love to bake, and the electric company can determine when you are baking, what plugs you are using for your stove and mixer, additionally they can determine the types of chocolate chips you use. There are two things that blocking net neutrality applied to this scenario would allow to happen. The company could say "Hey I see you love baking cookies. If you subscribe to our special cookie baking electricity, we can guarantee you won't have any issues and your cookies may even get done 1 minute faster." The other option available is that the company can say "Hey not sure if you know this, but baking cookies with chocolate chips made by our competitor will make your cookies take an extra 5 minutes to bake. Oh by the way, we just happen to have started offering our own brand of chocolate chips, and if you use our chocolate chips, we can guarantee your cookies will bake as fast as they normally do. Unless you want to upgrade to our new COOKIE EXTREME 2.0 electricity so its even faster?!" And the cookie baking delay isn't due to there being some funny interaction between competitor chocolate chips and your oven. The electricity company knows when and what you are baking, what chocolate chips you are using, and if they aren't their(or their partners) brand, they give you less electricity on that specific outlet in your house.

    This isn't, and never has been about the amount of data getting to your house. The fight has already been fought over and lost. A business is able to sell X MB/S for $ a month all without a guarantee that you will actually be able to get X MB/S. The issue is that ISP's have so much data about the data getting to your house. They know when, where, how frequent, and can actively throttle it back based upon any number of things, all hidden behind the guise of QoS hand waving because the average consumer honestly has no clue just what goes on in the average network.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al A Bama
    Actually, it seems that he wants to take away our Freedom of Speech on the internet. That way he can become The Emperor. You know Dictators and Emperors like 100% support from the populace. This way there is no disagreement with their policies or anything else they want to do.


    Are we seeing more lies and deception?
    Please don't take offense to this, as I am using your as an example of the greater issue at large. Having people who fundamentally do not understand technology being tasked with regulating it and shaping the path of it moving forward is the only reason for hope I have that eventually the young will become motivated enough to stop being so apathetic. In the ongoing net neutrality debate I continue to see a gap between those who understand technology, and those who don't, segregated primarily based upon the basis of age. There are some old timers who work in the industry and have been part of it from the outset who understand, but for the most part, attempting to explain the internet to an older generation is like trying to sell binoculars to a cyclops. Fundamentally people who actually have grown up with a constantly connected world get why its bad. Those who haven't, are finding themselves parroting the anti-government, anti-regulation rhetoric thrown up by the politicians bought and paid for by the telecom lobby. The surest way to get the greatest number of people on board, who are likely to never be affected, is to shout "Obama likes it!"

    If your (the royal your) objection is purely based off the principle that nothing the government touches will ever turn out for the better, this whole argument is moot anyways. I can legitimately respect your position, as the government has given many many examples of why this is a sound belief. However I ask that you at least attempt to argue on that point, not some of the crazy crap that has been thrown out there by Cruz, Fox, et al. There really is a diminishing window for actual discourse in this country. Every issue is taken to the extremes with both sides shouting at each other.

  2. #54
    Super Moderator NationalTitles17's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    5 pages in and no one has explained HOW reclassifying ISP's will help me, the consumer, or why reclassification is better than using Section 706 to have the same effect that they profess to want. I am for net neutrality (I pay isp to deliver all content without artificially slowing or "speeding" content from content providers), but I am not convinced that 1. reclassification will actually help achieve this end at all 2. that it is the best way to achieve it (I generally believe in least restrictive means) or 3. that it won't make the situation worse or create even worse problems.

    ETA: and by "HOW", I don't mean platitudes like "you'll get cotton candy rainbow unicorns in your email" or even "you'll have more choice" or "it will be cheaper". HOW will it do these things. I like cotton candy rainbow unicorns - it's why I voted for Obama (not really) - but HOW will this deliver them to my email?
    Last edited by NationalTitles17; November 11th, 2014 at 01:50 PM.
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  3. #55
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by NationalTitles15 View Post
    5 pages in and no one has explained HOW reclassifying ISP's will help me, the consumer, or why reclassification is better than using Section 706 to have the same effect that they profess to want. I am for net neutrality (I pay isp to deliver all content without artificially slowing or "speeding" content from content providers), but I am not convinced that 1. reclassification will actually help achieve this end at all 2. that it is the best way to achieve it (I generally believe in least restrictive means) or 3. that it won't make the situation worse or create even worse problems.

    ETA: and by "HOW", I don't mean platitudes like "you'll get cotton candy rainbow unicorns in your email" or even "you'll have more choice" or "it will be cheaper". HOW will it do these things. I like cotton candy rainbow unicorns - it's why I voted for Obama (not really) - but HOW will this deliver them to my email?
    The simple answer is, they can't explain it. They just "feel" it.

  4. #56
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    This isn't, and never has been about the amount of data getting to your house. The fight has already been fought over and lost. A business is able to sell X MB/S for $ a month all without a guarantee that you will actually be able to get X MB/S. The issue is that ISP's have so much data about the data getting to your house. They know when, where, how frequent, and can actively throttle it back based upon any number of things, all hidden behind the guise of QoS hand waving because the average consumer honestly has no clue just what goes on in the average network.
    Fair enough, but I have yet to see how giving more power to the agency with the muzzle of a gun leveled at my head (an agency with a demonstrated track record of using power it has, and power it has not been given, to favor certain political donors/supporters, to ruthlessly suppress citizens who do not act the way the regulators believe you should, etc.) will improve that situation.
    My solution would be to foster increased competition, give me more ISP choices, and empower citizens to fire malicious, incompetent or crooked ISPs. Given Sherman Anti-Trust Act powers, the Federal government could well do that. They do not do that, however, because they very regulators some seek to further empower are declining to break up monopoly ISPs.
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  5. #57
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by NationalTitles15 View Post
    5 pages in and no one has explained HOW reclassifying ISP's will help me, the consumer, or why reclassification is better than using Section 706 to have the same effect that they profess to want. I am for net neutrality (I pay isp to deliver all content without artificially slowing or "speeding" content from content providers), but I am not convinced that 1. reclassification will actually help achieve this end at all 2. that it is the best way to achieve it (I generally believe in least restrictive means) or 3. that it won't make the situation worse or create even worse problems.

    ETA: and by "HOW", I don't mean platitudes like "you'll get cotton candy rainbow unicorns in your email" or even "you'll have more choice" or "it will be cheaper". HOW will it do these things. I like cotton candy rainbow unicorns - it's why I voted for Obama (not really) - but HOW will this deliver them to my email?
    To answer your question, I am not sure that classification as a utility truly is THE best way to do it.

    I will dig into the 706 question though.

    706 is all about availability.

    Quote Originally Posted by SEC. 706. ADVANCED TELECOMMUNICATIONS INCENTIVES.
    SEC. 706. ADVANCED TELECOMMUNICATIONS INCENTIVES.

    (a) In General: The Commission and each State commission with regulatory jurisdiction over telecommunications services shall encourage the deployment on a reasonable and timely basis of advanced telecommunications capability to all Americans (including, in particular, elementary and secondary schools and classrooms) by utilizing, in a manner consistent with the public interest, convenience, and necessity, price cap regulation, regulatory forbearance, measures that promote competition in the local telecommunications market, or other regulating methods that remove barriers to infrastructure investment.

    (b) Inquiry: The Commission shall, within 30 months after the date of enactment of this Act, and regularly thereafter, initiate a notice of inquiry concerning the availability of advanced telecommunications capability to all Americans (including, in particular, elementary and secondary schools and classrooms) and shall complete the inquiry within 180 days after its initiation. In the inquiry, the Commission shall determine whether advanced telecommunications capability is being deployed to all Americans in a reasonable and timely fashion. If the Commission's determination is negative, it shall take immediate action to accelerate deployment of such capability by removing barriers to infrastructure investment and by promoting competition in the telecommunications market.

    (c) Definitions: For purposes of this subsection:

    (1) Advanced telecommunications capability: The term 'advanced telecommunications capability' is defined, without regard to any transmission media or technology, as high-speed, switched, broadband telecommunications capability that enables users to originate and receive high-quality voice, data, graphics, and video telecommunications using any technology.
    (2) Elementary and secondary schools: The term 'elementary and secondary schools' means elementary and secondary schools, as defined in paragraphs (14) and (25), respectively, of section 14101 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 8801)
    As to why they are going with the reclassification, I think it has to do with the government can then dictate terms of the broadcast license. IE "Thou shall not throttle my Sanford and Son's youtubes" Granted it is the FCC chairmans purview to say what those terms are but /shrug its at least a consistent point of entry for discussion. If everything goes to the wild west, and consumers and businesses alike have to deal with different companies with different terms, the burden for using the internet became higher. "Do I go with Uverse because of its speed, or Knology because the CEO is the brother in law of Hulu and I get a discount on Hulu packages?"

    As to the unintended consequences, frankly I have no idea. I would like to believe after all the attention that it got (greatest response to pending decision by FCC ever) the public can at least attempt to have a say in what happens instead of allowing for back room deals and lawyers decide how the internet works.

  6. #58
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Fair enough, but I have yet to see how giving more power to the agency with the muzzle of a gun leveled at my head (an agency with a demonstrated track record of using power it has, and power it has not been given, to favor certain political donors/supporters, to ruthlessly suppress citizens who do not act the way the regulators believe you should, etc.) will improve that situation.
    Can you provide some examples of the FCC doing this? I am legitimately curious as I haven't heard of this before.

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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    Please don't take offense to this, as I am using your as an example of the greater issue at large. Having people who fundamentally do not understand technology being tasked with regulating it and shaping the path of it moving forward is the only reason for hope I have that eventually the young will become motivated enough to stop being so apathetic. In the ongoing net neutrality debate I continue to see a gap between those who understand technology, and those who don't, segregated primarily based upon the basis of age. There are some old timers who work in the industry and have been part of it from the outset who understand, but for the most part, attempting to explain the internet to an older generation is like trying to sell binoculars to a cyclops. Fundamentally people who actually have grown up with a constantly connected world get why its bad. Those who haven't, are finding themselves parroting the anti-government, anti-regulation rhetoric thrown up by the politicians bought and paid for by the telecom lobby. The surest way to get the greatest number of people on board, who are likely to never be affected, is to shout "Obama likes it!"

    If your (the royal your) objection is purely based off the principle that nothing the government touches will ever turn out for the better, this whole argument is moot anyways. I can legitimately respect your position, as the government has given many many examples of why this is a sound belief. However I ask that you at least attempt to argue on that point, not some of the crazy crap that has been thrown out there by Cruz, Fox, et al. There really is a diminishing window for actual discourse in this country. Every issue is taken to the extremes with both sides shouting at each other.
    this is one of the best things I've read on tidefans in a long, long time. Count me as one of the old guys in this industry that gets it. 20 years in IT here

  8. #60
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    Can you provide some examples of the FCC doing this? I am legitimately curious as I haven't heard of this before.
    Well, the agency in this case is the Federal government (of which the FCC is a wholly owned subsidiary). I have no faith that the FCC will act any differently than the IRS, DOJ, SEC, ICE, etc.
    What reason do you have to believe the FCC will be the only Federal agency that will operate in its regulatory capacity in an honest, open and even-handed manner? Why is the FCC exempt from the failures that make other Federal agencies act in an opaque, dishonest and partial manner?
    I realize that you may be younger than me. I am old enough (and well-informed enough historically) to know that Progressives greatest failure is the naive belief that government regulators will be impartial and even-handed in administering whatever slice of society they are assigned to regulate. That has just been proven so wrong on so many occasions that I am surprised when Progressives still advance the argument. Regulators are human, with all the failings humans are prone to. Thrown in a bit of political pressure, and implied threats to the regulator's future employment and it is not surprising that regulators bend to the will of their political masters.
    This is an unfortunate consequence (an unavoidable one, in my view) of a government of unlimited powers.
    The only power a government does not abuse is one it does not have.
    Last edited by Tidewater; November 11th, 2014 at 03:24 PM.
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  9. #61
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    Well, the agency in this case is the Federal government (of which the FCC is a wholly owned subsidiary). I have no faith that the FCC will act any differently than the IRS, DOJ, SEC, ICE, etc.
    What reason do you have to believe the FCC will be the only Federal agency that will operate in its regulatory capacity in an honest, open and even-handed manner? Why is the FCC exempt from the failures that make other Federal agencies act in an opaque, dishonest and partial manner?
    No more reason than I have to believe that corporations with a veritable monopoly, who have already proven they have no interest in doing anything more than squeezing content creators and consumers, won't continue to do more of the same. I am just a realist. Personally I believe that the mega corporations who currently cover vast swaths of the country as the only provider should be broken up. I am actually surprised that you advocated for much of the same. But as a realist I know that DC is bought and paid for by the lobbyists. There is no way it will happen. The FCC is probably the last option. Even on things that should be a slam dunk in congress, amendments and pork get added so that it will never pass. The FCC truly isn't even a good place to hope for it. The current chairman is a former, and some would say current lobbyist. I also remember there was someone who approved a merger while at the FCC then went to work for one of the companies that was part of the merger.

    In all honesty, I believe this is a sisyphean task. The ISP's will get this tied up in the courts, and when the USSC eventually rules on it, the court will likely cave.

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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Displaced Bama Fan View Post
    So now all of "us" have to pay a service fee so you can have high speed internet? That's not ok with me.
    I would like to have the same options (as with electricity) as everyone else. It's funny that you assume I was asking for internet welfare.

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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    There are two things that blocking net neutrality applied to this scenario would allow to happen. The company could say "Hey I see you love baking cookies. If you subscribe to our special cookie baking electricity, we can guarantee you won't have any issues and your cookies may even get done 1 minute faster." The other option available is that the company can say "Hey not sure if you know this, but baking cookies with chocolate chips made by our competitor will make your cookies take an extra 5 minutes to bake. Oh by the way, we just happen to have started offering our own brand of chocolate chips, and if you use our chocolate chips, we can guarantee your cookies will bake as fast as they normally do. Unless you want to upgrade to our new COOKIE EXTREME 2.0 electricity so its even faster?!" And the cookie baking delay isn't due to there being some funny interaction between competitor chocolate chips and your oven. The electricity company knows when and what you are baking, what chocolate chips you are using, and if they aren't their(or their partners) brand, they give you less electricity on that specific outlet in your house.
    Tidewater has referenced the application of anti-trust law in previous posts. Both of these examples may in fact be illegal tying (a form of restraint of trade under anti-trust law) and could be addressed if the government would simply use its current power to do so.

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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverback View Post
    I would like to have the same options (as with electricity) as everyone else. It's funny that you assume I was asking for internet welfare.

    Did I mis-interpret your statement? You said it would be nice to have high speed internet but its a high dollar affair for you.

    So exactly how would government regulation make it cheaper for you?

    I'm still paying for rural line fees and access fees 28 years later, which have now become free cell phones for low income recipients. Once the government starts taxing it, it won't stop.

  13. #65
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Obama wants to make the internet a utility

    Quote Originally Posted by chanson78 View Post
    No more reason than I have to believe that corporations with a veritable monopoly, who have already proven they have no interest in doing anything more than squeezing content creators and consumers, won't continue to do more of the same. I am just a realist.
    I do not think I would characterize your position as "realist." It is quite idealistic.
    Personally I believe that the mega corporations who currently cover vast swaths of the country as the only provider should be broken up. I am actually surprised that you advocated for much of the same.
    You have probably never met anyone with a stricter view of the construction of Federal powers, but I do believe that breaking up monopolies is within the purview of Federal powers to regulate the value of interstate commerce. I believe Little Jimmy Madison would and the ratifiers of the Constitution would also see as within their intentions (once you had explained what the internet was and what corporations were doing with it; their next comment would be to ask why the Federal government was allowing the existence of corporations to begin with, but we can thank Republicans of the Lincolnian Era and the Gilded Age for that monstrosity.).
    But as a realist I know that DC is bought and paid for by the lobbyists. There is no way it will happen. The FCC is probably the last option.
    A desperate, drowning man will grasp at anything for salvation, even a boat anchor.
    Even on things that should be a slam dunk in congress, amendments and pork get added so that it will never pass. The FCC truly isn't even a good place to hope for it. The current chairman is a former, and some would say current lobbyist. I also remember there was someone who approved a merger while at the FCC then went to work for one of the companies that was part of the merger.

    In all honesty, I believe this is a sisyphean task. The ISP's will get this tied up in the courts, and when the USSC eventually rules on it, the court will likely cave.
    I just believe the FCC will be as corrupt any other Federal agency. At least ComCast does not have a gun pointed at my head Since I have multiple ISP options, when ComCast charges too much, I can tell them to perform an unnatural act on itself and take my custom elsewhere (which I have, in fact, done).
    And all it takes for Leviathan's fangs to come out is a challenge to its authority, and an issue in which large amounts of money are at stake. Leviathan can be quite nasty when challenged. Ask just about any white southerner in 1865.
    Last edited by Tidewater; November 11th, 2014 at 04:37 PM.
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