News Article: High cholesterol 'does not cause heart disease' new research finds

TIDE-HSV

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There's much more to it than a numbers game. At the time, a bit over a year ago, I had an LDL, or "bad" cholesterol count of 30. My "good" cholesterol was 107. My triglycerides were also 30. I asked my surgeon if he'd ever done a bypass on someone with my numbers. He thought a moment and said "No, and you've done everything you could not to meet me but you could never reduce the chances to zero."
 

selmaborntidefan

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There's much more to it than a numbers game. At the time, a bit over a year ago, I had an LDL, or "bad" cholesterol count of 30. My "good" cholesterol was 107. My triglycerides were also 30. I asked my surgeon if he'd ever done a bypass on someone with my numbers. He thought a moment and said "No, and you've done everything you could not to meet me but you could never reduce the chances to zero."
I remember that - and my point exactly. There's only zero risk to any of us if one is already dead.

(How in the world are your Trigs 30? Wow!)
 

TIDE-HSV

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I remember that - and my point exactly. There's only zero risk to any of us if one is already dead.

(How in the world are your Trigs 30? Wow!)
TBF, IDK, to overuse net 'nyms. I am on a statin. I've been on Lipitor, 40mg nightly, since it hit the market over 20 years ago. My HDL has always been high, generally over 90. My tri's had always been low, generally 40-70, but never this low. The 30 figure on LD-C was LDL/VLDL, so my total was 137, of which 107 was HDL. Obviously, chasing further improvement in numbers is not going to be anything which is going to be worthwhile for me. Hell, even my small particle LDL, which is supposed to be the real killer, was so low that it wasn't in the normal range. What I did have was lousy genetics and preexisting CAD. I don't feel safe, even now, with excellent cardiac cath results from three weeks ago. I've been disappointed too many times. As I said in another thread, the only changes I've made is to start taking the MK-7 form (with MENAQ7) of vitamin K2, up my magnesium to get into the normal range, and make sure to get 1-2 oz. of dark chocolate per day. Have I found the magic silver bullet? IDK, but I'm not changing that routine. The only caveat is, as Titles16 said the other day, is to work with your doctor, if you're taking any form of blood thinners. The vitamin K2 theory is not new, but your doctor may not be familiar with it. Here below is the NIH article from 2009 on it. It was based in part on a huge Dutch study. Google it and you'll find a lot of information on it. And, Bill, I do know one lady who had the surgery and didn't keep it off, but she took it back off and is maintaining it. She's walking about 5 miles per day, rain, snow or cold being no deterrent. Not many like her. As my GE doc buddy said "You don't think they're going to change their eating habits just because they had surgery or a band, do you?" He went on to say that you can gain a lot of weight on chocolate milkshakes...

LINK
 

selmaborntidefan

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And, Bill, I do know one lady who had the surgery and didn't keep it off, but she took it back off and is maintaining it. She's walking about 5 miles per day, rain, snow or cold being no deterrent. Not many like her. As my GE doc buddy said "You don't think they're going to change their eating habits just because they had surgery or a band, do you?" He went on to say that you can gain a lot of weight on chocolate milkshakes...

LINK
That's what got me. My folks - who were not massively overweight by any means but have saved very well - thought about both getting the surgery about ten years ago when Dad was pulling down some serious dough and they no longer had any kids at home. But after they investigated it, they realized that regardless they were going to have to change anyway. Once they saw that they figured, "why not save the money and just learn to do right anyway?"

That was basically my approach. I eat more protein now, I don't have a lunch and dinner of burgers and pizza, and I reduced my Diet Coke to virtually nil. (I have drank one a day every other day the last two weeks. The one vice I can't seem to give up is potato chips, but as I told a friend who is a kinesiologist, "You took 90% of what I was eating away anyway (other than eggs three times a week), you took away everything I was drinking...you MUST let me get some crunch."

I want to drop about 15 pounds and look slimmer but in so much better health. As I've begun to watch people in the high school classes around me die of heart attacks, it's more on my mind now than ever before.
 

TIDE-HSV

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That's what got me. My folks - who were not massively overweight by any means but have saved very well - thought about both getting the surgery about ten years ago when Dad was pulling down some serious dough and they no longer had any kids at home. But after they investigated it, they realized that regardless they were going to have to change anyway. Once they saw that they figured, "why not save the money and just learn to do right anyway?"

That was basically my approach. I eat more protein now, I don't have a lunch and dinner of burgers and pizza, and I reduced my Diet Coke to virtually nil. (I have drank one a day every other day the last two weeks. The one vice I can't seem to give up is potato chips, but as I told a friend who is a kinesiologist, "You took 90% of what I was eating away anyway (other than eggs three times a week), you took away everything I was drinking...you MUST let me get some crunch."

I want to drop about 15 pounds and look slimmer but in so much better health. As I've begun to watch people in the high school classes around me die of heart attacks, it's more on my mind now than ever before.
We have another friend, just saw her and her husband Saturday night, who didn't manage to keep it off. Her downfall is dessert. When we go to their house for dinner, two desserts aren't unusual and they're delicious. Of course, after we leave, we know where most of that dessert is going to go. Her husband is a very large man, a former college OL, but he's not obese like her. In addition, she has the knee problems that many obese persons have and that limits her physical activity a great deal...
 

Bamabuzzard

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I'm not sure if I've posted this on TF's before but my brother in law works in the medical field (CRNA). Several years ago one of the surgeons he worked with was running on the treadmill in the hospital gym and dropped dead of a massive heart attack. He was in his upper 40's (maybe early 50's), cross country/5k type runner. Ate very clean and had no signs of a potential heart attack (high blood pressure, cholesterol etc). It shook my brother in law up real bad. After it was all said and done he learned the doctor had family history of heart disease. Not much he really could have done about it. He was doing all he could do. His DNA just decided otherwise.
 
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bama_wayne1

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I have fought the good fight with respect to THE MAN'S HEALTH SCREENING. Last year 278 pounds High everything bad low everything good, this year 188 pounds BMI 24 everything within guidelines. I feel great but the restaurants around town are feeling the pinch.... I won't go back so I'm glad I hadn't seen this at the time, although it's good to know.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I have fought the good fight with respect to THE MAN'S HEALTH SCREENING. Last year 278 pounds High everything bad low everything good, this year 188 pounds BMI 24 everything within guidelines. I feel great but the restaurants around town are feeling the pinch.... I won't go back so I'm glad I hadn't seen this at the time, although it's good to know.
I think your lifestyle changes are far more important than numbers...
 

NationalTitles18

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Yet another drug raises good cholesterol and lowers bad - without any beneficial effects on heart outcomes...

LINK
I have fought the good fight with respect to THE MAN'S HEALTH SCREENING. Last year 278 pounds High everything bad low everything good, this year 188 pounds BMI 24 everything within guidelines. I feel great but the restaurants around town are feeling the pinch.... I won't go back so I'm glad I hadn't seen this at the time, although it's good to know.
I think your lifestyle changes are far more important than numbers...
That's the thing: People with good numbers have CV events. People with bad numbers don't. Cholesterol alone is a very poor predictor of CV events. Family history, social history (smoking, drinking, and so on), personal health history (hypertension, diabetes), and lifestyle are far better predictors than cholesterol or diet. It's also important for you and your provider to have a high degree of suspicion when you have new or worsening vague symptoms that could signal a problem. The worst thing to do is to ignore red flags that should lead you to see your doctor or go to the emergency room.
 

NationalTitles18

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I'm not sure if I've posted this on TF's before but my brother in law works in the medical field (CRNA). Several years ago one of the surgeons he worked with was running on the treadmill in the hospital gym and dropped dead of a massive heart attack. He was in his upper 40's (maybe early 50's), cross country/5k type runner. Ate very clean and had no signs of a potential heart attack (high blood pressure, cholesterol etc). It shook my brother in law up real bad. After it was all said and done he learned the doctor had family history of heart disease. Not much he really could have done about it. He was doing all he could do. His DNA just decided otherwise.
Could have had coronary microvascular disease or just one big coronary spasm. No atherosclerosis needed. And most usual tests will never pick up on it. More common in women but happens in men, too. Or Brugada syndrome, which is easily missed on ecg (and technically not a "heart attack").
 

TIDE-HSV

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That's the thing: People with good numbers have CV events. People with bad numbers don't. Cholesterol alone is a very poor predictor of CV events. Family history, social history (smoking, drinking, and so on), personal health history (hypertension, diabetes), and lifestyle are far better predictors than cholesterol or diet. It's also important for you and your provider to have a high degree of suspicion when you have new or worsening vague symptoms that could signal a problem. The worst thing to do is to ignore red flags that should lead you to see your doctor or go to the emergency room.
When I had my ACS episode, the only symptom was 20 minutes of heartburn, while I was losing 99% of my LAD. Fortunately, the damage was very minor, if any, and my EF is now a healthy 75%. (My wife, believe it or not has 97%.) I'm one of the lucky ones...
 

NationalTitles18

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When I had my ACS episode, the only symptom was 20 minutes of heartburn, while I was losing 99% of my LAD. Fortunately, the damage was very minor, if any, and my EF is now a healthy 75%. (My wife, believe it or not has 97%.) I'm one of the lucky ones...
75% of normal or 75%? (either way, with your history that's remarkable)

Also, 97% seems too good (to someone always on the lookout for things like hypertrophic cardiomyopathy).

Heartburn is one of those "must have a high degree of suspicion for new of worsening symptoms" as a warning sign or red flag. I have stories that did not end well and others that did. No one wants to wait to be the ashen fellow on the way to the cath lab saying "I'm going to die". By then it's a crapshoot. The body usually gives warnings long before that point.
 

TIDE-HSV

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75% of normal or 75%? (either way, with your history that's remarkable)

Also, 97% seems too good (to someone always on the lookout for things like hypertrophic cardiomyopathy).

Heartburn is one of those "must have a high degree of suspicion for new of worsening symptoms" as a warning sign or red flag. I have stories that did not end well and others that did. No one wants to wait to be the ashen fellow on the way to the cath lab saying "I'm going to die". By then it's a crapshoot. The body usually gives warnings long before that point.
Normal is 55% or above. Mine is 75%, period, although, before the bypass, it was about 55% or so. I'm aware of the downsides of an EF as high as Liz's, so I asked the joint cardiologist (who is also a personal friend). He said, in her case, no pathology at all. She just has an extraordinarily strong left ventricle. The first cath I ever had, almost 20 years ago, a precautionary one, a guy died across the room. At the time, they didn't even have curtains, just a big open room. The rooms now have three hard walls. It was remarkable to me how calm the attendants were as they used the paddle on him, over and over. He had come from CICU and they had different colored scrubs. I was in recovery at the time. I remarked that I didn't think they were going to be able to do him in any good. My nurse actually hissed "He was far too sick to be on our floor." Turned out my wife knew him personally, had actually carpooled with him. He was a rather large guy. He had the first, and one of the most popular pizza joints here, Terry's Pizza.
 

cuda.1973

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Wine and pasta...

LINK
My grandparents, and everyone in my parents generation, lived to be in their 80 or 90s.

With one exception: my dad. He only made it to 34.

I almost died at 28, and again, at 32.

The punchline is.................(without going into the details) is that I can no longer eat the "Mediterranean diet". So, we will see what that outcome is. The other half of the punchline is what will most likely do me in is all the crap that came about, from my cancer bout, at 32. (That is much too convoluted to go into. Trust me: it is all real, and really weird stuff.)

OK...................so what? What does this have to do with cholesterol?

About a year, ago, I talked to a researcher, who has a much different take on this matter. Everyone is hung up on numbers, because it is some simple metric, and it makes the "risk" involved easier to 'splain to the layman.

So they can "ask your doctor about...................blah, blah, blah. Which will do nothing except make us money, and cause a ton of side effects that we will try to hide from you."

(As an aside: you could not pay me to take a statin. I try to avoid NSAIDs, but some days...........well, I do give in.)

OK, back to the story..................

This researcher claims that new research (no, he did not cite references, as this was a casual conversation) shows there are 2 types of cholesterol, and only one is bad.

And it is NOT the HDL/LDL differentiation. "They" have found that one type of cholesterol is thin, and can freely flow through the circulatory system. The other is thick and gloppy, and they are trying to find out why there are 2 types and what their components are.

Haven't run into him, since, so can't provide updates.

"How art thou, thou gloppy bottle of cheap stinking chip oil?" Or something like that. (I could check IMDB to find the right words, but you can to that, if you desire.)

Anyway.

What do they call the guy who graduates last, in his medical class? (OK, it could be a gal, for those who think this is a sexist joke.)





Doctor.

Rimshot.
 

cuda.1973

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One more thing, about us eye-ties.................

Type II diabetes was unknown, in Italy, until after WWII. Just like most of the rest of the world.

The best suspect: Crisco, and other "trans-fats".

Several researchers, that I know, claim there is a link (that can not easily be 'splained to laymen) between fat metabolism, and diabetes. Has something to do with what they call "brown fat", which is the fat that is deep inside the human body. IOW, not the yellow stuff, under the skin.

The trans-isomers do not, for the most part, exist normally, in nature. Eventually, maybe, "evolution" will enable humans to deal with ingesting that garbage. Maybe. But not in 1 or 2 generations.

Ok...............more irony!


Now that the food industry is moving on to using less trans-fats, they are going back to using highly processed polyunsaturates. (Because polyunsaturates are better for cholesterol numbers, don'tcha know!) The problem is the double-bonds, that make up the unsaturated part of the chain, are very weak, and prone to breaking down. (Into more stable saturated fats chains.) But, when this happens, the tendency towards rancidity goes up, dramatically.

And when ingested.........................leads to the dreaded "free radicals", which are really bad news.

Either way, you lose!

Avoid processed food. That is why eye-ties are around so long. Yet, all those simple carbs (in the form of pasta and alcohol) give rise to "FODMAP" issues.

Don't asking me about that one, unless you really, really, really want to get depressed.
 

TIDE-HSV

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And it is NOT the HDL/LDL differentiation. "They" have found that one type of cholesterol is thin, and can freely flow through the circulatory system. The other is thick and gloppy, and they are trying to find out why there are 2 types and what their components are.
The two types are large and small cell LDL. The small cell type is supposed to infiltrate the artery walls more readily. I don't know if this is proven or is just a hypothesis. Anyway, the "normal" rang is something like mid teens to mid fifties. Mine was around eight. So, once again, I was supposed to be "safe." Wrong...
 

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