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Police officer fired for flying a Confederate flag from her house.

selmaborntidefan

selmaborntidefan

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seebell said:
My world view is YUGE, Selma. :)

This police woman drove her official marked police car home and parked it under the rebel flag. No can do.

Could she fly a nazi flag? Klan flag? Soviet flag.

As far as the Gadsden Flag the white supremacists who murdered the 2 police officers at the pizza parlor in Las Vegas draped the Gadsden flag over the officers bleeding bodies. The meaning of a symbol can change with time.
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But - as happens EVERY TIME I point this out - how in the world can the same person go park her police car under an AMERICAN flag in, say, Oklahoma or Arizona and tell me it's NOT a sign of oppression?

And if the meaning of a symbol can change in time (as you said) then you cannot use the slavery argument against the Rebel flag anyway.

(Has anyone else ever noticed that the same black people who scream the loudest about the Rebel flag being a symbol tend to be Christians who cherish a book that espouses slavery, killing, and has been used to justify everything from war to the civil rights movement? Or they sing the song "Amazing Grace," written by a man who was a slave trader at the time he wrote it but emphasize his later change? Once again, my problem is the HYPOCRISY of people who out of one side insist on removal of X but stand with X1 and somehow it's okay).

That being said - a public office is a public trust (as President Truman said). And that's where there's sometimes a fine line in what is LEGAL an what is ETHICAL/ACCEPTABLE. Let's be blunt - even if a nursery school teacher is NOT a pedophile, do we REALLY want them being known members of NAMBLA? Do you really want a high school teacher moonlighting as a stripper or a porn star? (Don't answer that, 92, ha ha).

I recall sitting in a student teaching seminar 25 years ago and them going over with us the lines of morality/appropriateness. The point was re-emphasized that just because something is legal does not mean it should be done.

On a side (and somewhat related note) - when current SCOTUS justice Anthony Kennedy was on the circuit court in California, he was a member of a San Francisco club that had no black or female members for several years...right up to the day he came to Washington to discuss the possibility of nomination. This might have been 'legal' but according to one source I have is (was in 1987 and I'm sure still) in violation of the ABA's "Code of Judicial Conduct."

Let's just say that while Kennedy has carved out a stellar career, when you're a member of such a club AND you've had THREE civil rights rulings overturned by the SCOTUS...it doesn't look good.
 
selmaborntidefan

selmaborntidefan

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Tidewater said:
When I fly my Confederate flag, this is what I am thinking, this is my intention.

* Iowa Republican Governor Samuel Kirkwood and Ohio Republican Governor William Dennison both refused to hand over members of John Brown's insurrectionary crew, indicted for treason, murder and inciting servile insurrection.
@ Barclay Coppoc of Iowa, Francis Merriam and Owen Brown of Ashtabulah, Ohio were given sanctuary by Republican governors.
# 68 Republican members of the US House of Representatives endorsed a book by Rowan Hinton Helper that called nonslaveholding whites "“the stupid and sequacious masses," and “cringing lickspittles,” and suggested, in part, the slaves “in nine cases out of ten, would be delighted with an opportunity to cut their masters' throats.” Slaveholders had to decide whether they would be “the victims of white non-slaveholding vengeance by day, and of barbarous massacre by the negroes at night,” and whether they would be “instrumental in bringing upon yourselves, your wives, and your children, a fate too horrible to contemplate.” 68 current members of the House and New York Republicans William Seward and Henry Wilson endorsed this book.

Basically, Republicans were telling white southerners, "we reserve the right to kill you. You cannot beat us electorally, and we will not let you out of the Union, and we will not abide by our promises embodied in the Constitution. You are, quite simply, at our mercy." And this set of conditions were such as would get Georgians, whether they owned slaves or not, to consider whether they wanted to live in a Union with such people or not. They opted to leave.

Southern secession was unavoidable and was indeed, the only remaining honorable thing under such conditions.
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Wait. Are you telling me now that the Republican Party hasn't always been the conservative one????
 
Tidewater

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seebell said:
The meaning of a symbol can change with time.
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Interesting point. The meaning of a symbol can change over time, and the Confederate flag obviously has (symbol of Confederate independence, then Confederate veterans' sacrifices in the War to Prevent Southern Independence, then white supremacy within the United States, then opposition to Federally-mandated integration, and throughout, southern regional identity), but now, apparently, its meaning is immutably fixed.
How do we know that the Confederate flag won't become a universal symbol of freedom and racial reconciliation and this woman isn't just ahead of the curve?
 
Tidewater

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selmaborntidefan said:

Wait. Are you telling me now that the Republican Party hasn't always been the conservative one????
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I just found this recently and since you brought it up. William McDonald's father, Angus, was a partisan ranger killed by the Union army in 1864. William wrote a post-war book about the crisis leading to the war. McDonald wrote about

The crafty, Satan-like, Seward. ... Wm. H. Seward, of New York, is, perhaps, the best representative type of the Yankee nation. Distinguished individual villains there are, who, perhaps, surpass him in their particular gifts to do evil; but, in the scope, variety, and intensity of his evil propensities, he is the most infernal Yankee of them all. While, perhaps, Greely is the most devoted falsifier of truth, Cheever, the wretch, most blasphemous, and Sumner the most brazen pimp to a depraved public taste, it is reserved for Seward to unite them all in one, and, like a horrid masterpiece of demonism, to blend in one single nature, the opposite of every virtue, and the vice of every soul. John Brown was a violator of the law, a thief, robber, and assassin. But, ... he was an angel of light compared to Wm. H. Seward. ... It is difficult to measure the depth of [Seward's] malignancy. ... Seward is, ever and always, the plain, matter-of-fact, pure, unadulterated demon.
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William McDonald, The Two Rebellions; Or, Treason Unmasked, (Richmond: Smith, Bailey & Co., 1865), 65-69.

I like how McDonald pulls his punches.

Personal opinion: Seward's embrace of the Helper book in 1859 killed his chances of getting the Republican nomination in 1860. The Republicans were worried about a backlash, so they sought (and found) a little-known politician from the mid-west whom nobody had ever heard of (so he had no real record).
 
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RammerJammer14

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seebell said:
As far as the Gadsden Flag the white supremacists who murdered the 2 police officers at the pizza parlor in Las Vegas draped the Gadsden flag over the officers bleeding bodies. The meaning of a symbol can change with time.
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Sure, symbols can change over time. But it takes a hell of a lot more than one-off incidences and the feelings of one guy at the office. Two nutcases in Nevada don't suddenly redefine a 250yr old flag. Or are you now on board with calling Islam a religion of violence, mosques terrorist recruitment centers, and all Muslims murdering psychopaths? Is BLM now an evil movement because of 2-3 unhinged shooters? You seem awfully willing to condemn flags that are waved at movements you are politically opposed to. If some nut goes and shoots a police officer today and drapes an Alabama flag over him, is the Alabama state flag now a symbol of hate and violence?

It is important that we do not simply roll over and let our symbols be redefined on the whims of the few. And some oversensitive guy in an office somewhere doesn't get to decide what a symbol means to 99.9% of the people who see it and use it.


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92tide

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RammerJammer14 said:
Sure, symbols can change over time. But it takes a hell of a lot more than one-off incidences and the feelings of one guy at the office. Two nutcases in Nevada don't suddenly redefine a 250yr old flag. Or are you now on board with calling Islam a religion of violence, mosques terrorist recruitment centers, and all Muslims murdering psychopaths? Is BLM now an evil movement because of 2-3 unhinged shooters? You seem awfully willing to condemn flags that are waved at movements you are politically opposed to. If some nut goes and shoots a police officer today and drapes an Alabama flag over him, is the Alabama state flag now a symbol of hate and violence?

It is important that we do not simply roll over and let our symbols be redefined on the whims of the few. And some oversensitive guy in an office somewhere doesn't get to decide what a symbol means to 99.9% of the people who see it and use it.


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a few of these popped up in my neighborhood after orlando

 
gman4tide

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"Originally Posted by Georgia Secession Declaration …The faithless conduct of our adversaries is not confined to such acts as might aggrandize themselves or their section of the Union. They are content if they can only injure us. The Constitution declares that persons charged with crimes in one State and fleeing to another shall be delivered up on the demand of the executive authority of the State from which they may flee, to be tried in the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. It would appear difficult to employ language freer from ambiguity, yet for above twenty years the non-slave-holding States generally have wholly refused to deliver up to us persons charged with crimes affecting slave property. Our confederates, with punic faith, shield and give sanctuary to all criminals who seek to deprive us of this property or who use it to destroy us.* This clause of the Constitution has no other sanction than their good faith; that is withheld from us; we are remediless in the Union; out of it we are remitted to the laws of nations. … The public law of civilized nations requires every State to restrain its citizens or subjects from committing acts injurious to the peace and security of any other State and from attempting to excite insurrection, or to lessen the security, or to disturb the tranquillity of their neighbors, and our Constitution wisely gives Congress the power to punish all offenses against the laws of nations.
These are sound and just principles which have received the approbation of just men in all countries and all centuries; but they are wholly disregarded by the people of the Northern States, and the Federal Government is impotent to maintain them. For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils,# the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight@ have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates.
These are the same men who say the Union shall be preserved.
Such are the opinions and such are the practices of the Republican party, who have been called by their own votes to administer the Federal Government under the Constitution of the United States. We know their treachery; we know the shallow pretenses under which they daily disregard its plainest obligations. If we submit to them it will be our fault and not theirs. The people of Georgia have ever been willing to stand by this bargain, this contract; they have never sought to evade any of its obligations; they have never hitherto sought to establish any new government; they have struggled to maintain the ancient right of themselves and the human race through and by that Constitution. But they know the value of parchment rights in treacherous hands, and therefore they refuse to commit their own to the rulers whom the North offers us. … [These northern rulers] give sanctuary to thieves and incendiaries who assail it to the whole extent of their power, in spite of their most solemn obligations and covenants; because their avowed purpose is to subvert our society and subject us not only to the loss of our property but the destruction of ourselves, our wives, and our children, and the desolation of our homes, our altars, and our firesides. To avoid these evils we resume the powers which our fathers delegated to the Government of the United States, and henceforth will seek new safeguards for our liberty, equality, security, and tranquillity. Approved, Tuesday, January 29, 1861"

People don't talk like that anymore. Eloquent, yet firm and to the point.
 
Tidewater

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Not surprising, the terminated officer has filed a Federal lawsuit against her former employers.
She says she was not warned to take the flag off her house, or ordered to do so.

No one at the department ever asked her to remove the flag, and no one explained to her the concerns raised in the email to the chief, the lawsuit says. She was placed on paid administrative leave the day after the complaint came in and was fired on July 14. Previously she had flown a flag that had a motorcycle in the center and a smaller version of the Confederate flag since April 2015.
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JBama_in_PCOLA

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Tidewater

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JBama_in_PCOLA said:
I hope she wins. I'm a big proponent of Freedom of Speech. I don't have to agree with what's said, but I will not infringe on someone's rights.
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I do, too.
Free speech does not work if opponents of your speech get to define what your speech means (even if they deliberately misinterpret your speech), and restrict your speech based on that (misinterpreted) meaning. Under such premises, free speech is at an end.
 
JBama_in_PCOLA

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Tidewater said:
I do, too.
Free speech does not work if opponents of your speech get to define what your speech means (even if they deliberately misinterpret your speech), and restrict your speech based on that (misinterpreted) meaning. Under such premises, free speech is at an end.
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You got it man. Doggone you've got it. You can't explain that to some though.


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selmaborntidefan

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In the 1950s and 60s, it was primarily conservatives - religious ones - that were saying listening to Elvis would send you to Hell and burning books like "Catcher in the Rye." On into the 70s and 80s, it was the same fundamentalist nuts who were freaking out about rock music and so-called backward masking (oh the stories I can tell from youth group). They had Halloween and record 'burn ins.'

Somewhere along the way, it became self-professing liberals who wanted to determine what is and is not acceptable 'free speech.' Yeah, there's a line and you can't say 'fire' in a crowded theatre but.....I'd still rather default to more tolerance even of ideas I don't like so long as they don't involve actual harm to people.
 
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selmaborntidefan said:
In the 1950s and 60s, it was primarily conservatives - religious ones - that were saying listening to Elvis would send you to Hell and burning books like "Catcher in the Rye." On into the 70s and 80s, it was the same fundamentalist nuts who were freaking out about rock music and so-called backward masking (oh the stories I can tell from youth group). They had Halloween and record 'burn ins.'

Somewhere along the way, it became self-professing liberals who wanted to determine what is and is not acceptable 'free speech.' Yeah, there's a line and you can't say 'fire' in a crowded theatre but.....I'd still rather default to more tolerance even of ideas I don't like so long as they don't involve actual harm to people.
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I want to ask what backward masking is, but maybe I don't want to ask what backward masking is.
 
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