Link: Dicaprio...m the new AlGore

NationalTitles18

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Yes, they did. It was an error. Ethanol was initially championed as a silver bullet. They learned of this error as research showed that biofuels from most food crops did not significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The hope was they would pave the way for a "next-generation" ethanol that would use non-food plants. That has not happened. But what has kept these mandates in place is big corn's lobbying. Iowa is a very important state and you can kiss a lot of support goodbye if you suggest repealing the mandates. To Ted Cruz's credit, this is one issue where he is absolutely correct.
If they had taken their time and worked out the math it should have been obvious to them before they ever pushed their "solution" onto the world. The problem was and is that they hate "fossil fuels" so much that they were blinded to the naysayers' objections. They dismissed them out of hand and attempted to discredit them at every turn. At the time they tried to pin blame on the naysayers for the problems they were trying to solve. Now they blame others when the policy they prescribed turns out to be even worse than what those naysayers claimed they would be. They refuse to accept responsibility for their poorly reasoned actions or their bullying behavior and the results of it. They should know that once a government program gets going it has billions of dollars in intertia to overcome to stop it. People will think you're crazy for trying to eliminate even a bad government program. All the money is part and parcel of politics. That should be obvious. Government is not your pal. It isn't your friend. Or your nanny. Or daddy. Or big benevolent brother. Once government commits to something it is committed to it. And plenty are willing to grease the wheel$$$ to keep it going. So blame this one or that one but the environmentalist own this one from start to finish. And I'm seeing a pattern. Act now, think later. Stupid then, and it's stupid now. All the "deniers" (naysayers, obstructionists - whatever other pejorative you can come up with) play an important role. They make you think about every angle - if you are inclined to think about it. The consequences of bad policy are sometimes worse than doing nothing. That's important to remember at any time, especially before massive changes in policy that will literally impact every person on the planet - many, and especially the poor, in a very bad way. Ethanol took food off many people's table - literally or from price increases in corn or in dairy and livestock prices, etc;... The same will absolutely and undeniably be true of any climate change initiative. Most likely, lives will be lost. Lives will be affected by a poorer quality of life. The worst effected will be the most poor. Also undeniable. That's something that should give anyone pause to think long and hard about the impacts. But, hey! If it's someone "over there" dying and suffering, who gives a rip, right?
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
If they had taken their time and worked out the math it should have been obvious to them before they ever pushed their "solution" onto the world. The problem was and is that they hate "fossil fuels" so much that they were blinded to the naysayers' objections. They dismissed them out of hand and attempted to discredit them at every turn. At the time they tried to pin blame on the naysayers for the problems they were trying to solve. Now they blame others when the policy they prescribed turns out to be even worse than what those naysayers claimed they would be. They refuse to accept responsibility for their poorly reasoned actions or their bullying behavior and the results of it. They should know that once a government program gets going it has billions of dollars in intertia to overcome to stop it. People will think you're crazy for trying to eliminate even a bad government program. All the money is part and parcel of politics. That should be obvious. Government is not your pal. It isn't your friend. Or your nanny. Or daddy. Or big benevolent brother. Once government commits to something it is committed to it. And plenty are willing to grease the wheel$$$ to keep it going. So blame this one or that one but the environmentalist own this one from start to finish. And I'm seeing a pattern. Act now, think later. Stupid then, and it's stupid now. All the "deniers" (naysayers, obstructionists - whatever other pejorative you can come up with) play an important role. They make you think about every angle - if you are inclined to think about it. The consequences of bad policy are sometimes worse than doing nothing. That's important to remember at any time, especially before massive changes in policy that will literally impact every person on the planet - many, and especially the poor, in a very bad way. Ethanol took food off many people's table - literally or from price increases in corn or in dairy and livestock prices, etc;... The same will absolutely and undeniably be true of any climate change initiative. Most likely, lives will be lost. Lives will be affected by a poorer quality of life. The worst effected will be the most poor. Also undeniable. That's something that should give anyone pause to think long and hard about the impacts. But, hey! If it's someone "over there" dying and suffering, who gives a rip, right?
It wasn't necessarily a case of it being pushed by the environmentalists. They supported it (some environmentalists are woefully uninformed, unfortunately), but they weren't the main push behind the subsidies being passed. The impetus was political rather than scientific. A handout to the corn growing states like Iowa. The "deniers," were on board.
 

NationalTitles18

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It wasn't necessarily a case of it being pushed by the environmentalists. They supported it (some environmentalists are woefully uninformed, unfortunately), but they weren't the main push behind the subsidies being passed. The impetus was political rather than scientific. A handout to the corn growing states like Iowa. The "deniers," were on board.
The political class was on board. Because spending someone else's money to curry favor brings them power. Same as it ever was. The impetus was environmentalists' arrogance. That same arrogance turns them into deniers of their own responsibility when things go wrong. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Pride comes before destruction, an arrogant spirit before a fall.
 

Bodhisattva

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You have ADM and the corn lobby to thank for that. Environmentalists have long since wised up. Billions of dollars a year for that particular boondoggle.
So, maybe the government (which, on a particular issue, is controlled by whichever lobby can spend the most) is not the best entity to "solve" our problems.
 

Bodhisattva

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I'm for whichever energy solution works best. I don't believe in subsidies. If an idea is a winner, the market will support it. Government subsidies don't back winners; they back the politically connected. How many real solutions never made it because the government crowded them out?

All I hear from the greenies up here is that "we have to do something." My follow up is, "Who is 'we'? and what is the 'something' that works?" The (translated) answer I always get is that the government must force people to do something against there own economic interest. I have one acquaintance who swears up and down that the government should make people get tens of thousands of dollars worth of solar panels placed on there roofs. "And when people can't afford it?," I ask. He responded, "It won't cost anything. The government will pay for it." :confused:
 

Bodhisattva

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Unfortunately, only the governments can "solve" the problem until companies can figure out how to make money off of it.
The government is not in the problem-solving business. It's in the wealth redistribution, issue-demagoging, wasting a lot of money, making people a lot poorer than they need to be, and distorting markets business.
 

seebell

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My memory is that ethanol was pushed as a means of decreasing reliance on oil imports and especially OPEC. A national security issue. Clean fuel was just a bonus.

The law mandating ethanol is called Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007. Not a clean air act or a global warming act.

Brazil was much in the news back then because they used ethanol for almost all their fuel need. Course their fuel is made from sugar cane and not food stocks.
 

tidegrandpa

All-American
I'm for whichever energy solution works best. I don't believe in subsidies. If an idea is a winner, the market will support it. Government subsidies don't back winners; they back the politically connected. How many real solutions never made it because the government crowded them out?

All I hear from the greenies up here is that "we have to do something." My follow up is, "Who is 'we'? and what is the 'something' that works?" The (translated) answer I always get is that the government must force people to do something against there own economic interest. I have one acquaintance who swears up and down that the government should make people get tens of thousands of dollars worth of solar panels placed on there roofs. "And when people can't afford it?," I ask. He responded, "It won't cost anything. The government will pay for it." :confused:
West and Northwest Texas is nothing but the subsidized windmills. They look like hell too.
 

seebell

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Gurley, Al
The government is not in the problem-solving business. It's in the wealth redistribution, issue-demagoging, wasting a lot of money, making people a lot poorer than they need to be, and distorting markets business.
Need to take every tenth gubmint worker out and shoot 'em.
 

Tide1986

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My memory is that ethanol was pushed as a means of decreasing reliance on oil imports and especially OPEC. A national security issue. Clean fuel was just a bonus.

The law mandating ethanol is called Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007. Not a clean air act or a global warming act.

Brazil was much in the news back then because they used ethanol for almost all their fuel need. Course their fuel is made from sugar cane and not food stocks.
Apparently climate change is our biggest security threat.
 

92tide

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The imagery of countless thousands of chickens being dispatched by windmills made me laugh for some perverse reason.
since chickens don't fly, i am assuming trebuchets would have to be be involved. trebuchets are always funny, throw chickens in the mix ...
 
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Bama Torch in Pcola

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I actually somewhat agree with him. Big shocker, I know.

I wouldn't limit it to climate change denial though. Denial of things like climate change and evolution (the republicans, generally), modern medicine and the benefits of GMOs (Jill Stein and the Greens, and to some degree the democrats) are indicators of deeply flawed worldviews.
LoL
 

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