Is the American Republic about to mirror the Fall of the Roman Republic

Tidewater · Dec 2, 2016

Tidewater said:
Five myths about the decline and fall of Rome
Here's a Rome scholar's take.
He's from Columbia, but he makes some good points nevertheless.
Reader's Digest version of the myths he takes on:

MYTH NO. 1: America is going through what republican Rome did.

There are some similarities.

MYTH NO. 2: The republic collapsed because of class conﬂict.

Marxist drivel.

MYTH NO. 3: The empire collapsed because of widespread lead poisoning.

Silliness. What percentage of the people of the Empire got water from lead pipes?

NO. 4: The empire collapsed because of barbarian invasions.

Goths sacking Rome probably did not do much for the longevity of the western half of the empire.

NO. 5: The empire collapsed because of Christianity.

Gibbon's thesis. Now this one is particularly silly. Gibbon thought that Roman Catholicism was a superstition (transubstantiation, and all that). But during the period of Rome's greatest territorial expansion (200 BC - A.D. 14), the Romans, before a battle, would consult the "sacred chickens." If the chickens said Rome should fight, they fought. If the chickens said don't fight, they did not. In the First Punic War, Publius Claudius Pulcher fought despite the chickens telling him not to. And lost badly. And Romans said, "See. Told you. The chickens said not to fight. See what happens when you ignore the sacred chickens?"
And Roman Catholicism is more superstitious than that?

RammerJammer14 · Dec 3, 2016

Tidewater said:
Sallust had something to say about this as well.

Having a powerful enemy tends to dampen internal conflicts because, if you do not cooperate with each other, you end up dead. The Second Punic war (at least the first part) was bad, very bad for the Roman republic. They survived for two reasons.
1. After having lost several armies to Hannibal, they adopted the Fabian strategy of avoiding pitched battles, and keeping a Roman army in the field, but just out of reach of Hannibal.
2. Even as Hannibal was stomping around Italy, he never could peel Roman allied city-state away from the Roman alliance. This was because of the dextrous manner with which Rome had dealt with allied city-states. Before the Punic Wars, the Romans had dealt leniently with allied cities that had stayed loyal and had dealt harshly with city-states that proved disloyal to Rome. Italian cities stayed loyal to Rome, even as Hannibal was burning Italian cities for not joining the Carthaginians.

Losing the Soviets as mortal enemies may have had a similar effect on the American alliance, although the Cold War was never anywhere near as painful for the Americans (and allies) as the Second Punic War was for Rome and her allies. It is really too soon to tell.

I have wondered the same about the Cold War.

While America has always been economically important in the world, it only truly arrived with WWII and the position it found itself in as the only domestically untouched Allied power. We were in the position to counter the Soviets and it really defined us as a country for 50yrs. The struggle of freedom vs tyranny. Then they collapsed, and we found ourselves as the only true superpower in the world. And we have reveled in the excess of prosperity.

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Tidewater · Dec 3, 2016

RammerJammer14 said:
I have wondered the same about the Cold War.

While America has always been economically important in the world, it only truly arrived with WWII and the position it found itself in as the only domestically untouched Allied power. We were in the position to counter the Soviets and it really defined us as a country for 50yrs. The struggle of freedom vs tyranny. Then they collapsed, and we found ourselves as the only true superpower in the world. And we have reveled in the excess of prosperity.

Here is what Sallust had to say about losing Carthage as the enemy:

Or, before the destruction of Carthage, the senate and people managed the affairs of the republic with mutual moderation and forbearance; there were no contests among the citizens for honor or ascendency; but the dread of an enemy kept the state in order. When that fear, however, was removed from their minds, licentiousness and pride, evils which prosperity loves to foster, immediately began to prevail; and thus peace, which they had so eagerly desired in adversity, proved, when they had obtained it, more grievous and fatal than adversity itself. The patricians carried their authority, and the people their liberty, to excess; every man took, snatched, and seized what he could. There was a complete division into two factions, and the republic was torn in pieces between them.

History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme sometimes.

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