News Article: The All Lane Kiffin Related Posts Thread

GrayTide

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Maybe cancer was too harsh a word for Kiffin's time at Alabama. FWIW, as most on here would agree; the Kiffin hire was viewed with a lot of trepidation, but all who thought it would eventually not end well assumed CNS could control the situation. IDK all the particulars during his time at Alabama, nor do I care, suffice to say the experiment ran its course and was terminated. IMO, Kiffin will never be considered anything but a good coach who could have accomplished more and in the end will only have himself to blame. I am thankful he is no longer on the Alabama staff and is some other school's problem.
 

TideEngineer08

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Re: Lane Kiffin

I have no problem with people hating on CLK, but I think the basic facts need to remain stable. The deck was stacked in Bama's favor only because of great recruiting, but not for the reason you claim, that the SEC was in decline. At least it was not in decline in 2014. According to Sagarin's computer rankings (not saying Sagarin is the end all and be all, but it's an attempt at an objective measurement) the 2014 season ended with 8 SEC teams in his top 15, and 11 in the top 30. That's crazy good. In 2014, we played the #2 toughest schedule. #1 and 3-6 were Auburn, Ole Miss, Arkansas, LSU and A&M. In other words, being in the SEC west all but guaranteed you played the hardest possible schedule. I guess you might argue the SECw was overrated, but hardly can you argue it was in decline. It had to be one of the hardest divisions in the history of the sport. Oh yeah, don't forget State. They finished in Sagarin's top 10 also. Every team in the SECw finished in his top 22.

In 2015 the SEC may have begun a decline, but still we played arguably one of the hardest schedules of all time, coming in with 11 games against top 30 teams! Unless you just think the whole entire sport was in decline, then you can't really say we played a soft schedule.

What Saban has put together is unprecedented in my life, and so I concede we were the presumptive favorite each year, but neither year were we a flawless team. Just to take the obvious, we had two QBs who were first time starters and neither even stuck with an NFL scout team, so it's not like CLK had the advantage at QB.

Then in 2016 for reasons that still perplex the mind, we played with a true freshman QB who had extreme potential, but also timing and accuracy issues, a true freshman right tackle, mainly freshmen running backs, and we went 14-0. Sure, the defense was great, but still, acting like everything just lined up for CLK and all he had to do was sit back and enjoy the ride is not persuasive to me.

I want to address this from one other angle as well. If Saban was already destroying Meyer, Richt, and Miles in previous years (which is your premise), then how is their departure a real change in conditions? It would be one thing if we were losing to them, and then they retired. But we were already beating the snot out of them, which is why they were fired. So what changed then? Do you really think our success would have been less if Chiswis, Nutt, and Petrino were still coaching in the SEC? The only coach on your list who is formidable is Meyer, and we had to face him once anyway in 2014. Richt and Miles were both still around when we beat them with CLK.

So of course I give the lion's share of the credit to CNS, but I can't act like the cards were just stacked in CLK's favor either. He had some real challenges to overcome.
I am claiming the SEC has been in decline because of Alabama's superior recruiting. Even Lane Kiffin himself said this, I believe, after his exit. I believe his words were something to the effect of, the SEC was a much tougher league when he was first exposed to it in 2009, than what it was when he came back in 2014.

I don't claim Kiffin had it easy. BUT, I do claim he had it much easier than he otherwise would have due to Alabama's supreme dominance over the league from a talent/depth standpoint. People like to point to the 3 straight first time starters at QB as if it were some miracle that Kiffin pulled off. Does anyone really think that would have been possible for any other program? I don't. Alabama had so much more room for error that it could afford to start a true freshman QB. No other program in this country can do something like that and run the table all the way to the national title game. That's because of the advantages built up by Nick Saban over the last decade, which has left every other SEC program scrambled.

You are definitely correct that the schedules have still been tough. We haven't simply won by default. It's taken a great deal of effort and discipline by both the players and the coaches to pull this run off. I don't want to minimize that at all. We got these advantages as a program because of tireless effort from Nick Saban all the way down to the equipment managers. I just think Kiffin, while no doubt talented, isn't the best OC in the country, and he isn't irreplaceable. And I base that off of my theory that the Alabama monster has forced the entire SEC to tear itself down and now start to rebuild itself.

Well, ultimately, it's an opinion and it may not be the correct one.
 

81usaf92

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I am claiming the SEC has been in decline because of Alabama's superior recruiting. Even Lane Kiffin himself said this, I believe, after his exit. I believe his words were something to the effect of, the SEC was a much tougher league when he was first exposed to it in 2009, than what it was when he came back in 2014.

I don't claim Kiffin had it easy. BUT, I do claim he had it much easier than he otherwise would have due to Alabama's supreme dominance over the league from a talent/depth standpoint. People like to point to the 3 straight first time starters at QB as if it were some miracle that Kiffin pulled off. Does anyone really think that would have been possible for any other program? I don't. Alabama had so much more room for error that it could afford to start a true freshman QB. No other program in this country can do something like that and run the table all the way to the national title game. That's because of the advantages built up by Nick Saban over the last decade, which has left every other SEC program scrambled.

You are definitely correct that the schedules have still been tough. We haven't simply won by default. It's taken a great deal of effort and discipline by both the players and the coaches to pull this run off. I don't want to minimize that at all. We got these advantages as a program because of tireless effort from Nick Saban all the way down to the equipment managers. I just think Kiffin, while no doubt talented, isn't the best OC in the country, and he isn't irreplaceable. And I base that off of my theory that the Alabama monster has forced the entire SEC to tear itself down and now start to rebuild itself.

Well, ultimately, it's an opinion and it may not be the correct one.
Since you brought up the qb situation... imagine if Kiffin had AJ or Gmac. Also look at how meh our qb pool got under Nuss and Mac, and look at how it is now. Also look at Mac and Nuss are with qbs at Florida.
 

TideEngineer08

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Since you brought up the qb situation... imagine if Kiffin had AJ or Gmac. Also look at how meh our qb pool got under Nuss and Mac, and look at how it is now. Also look at Mac and Nuss are with qbs at Florida.
Yeah, but again, I'm not trying to say Kiffin did nothing while he was here. I just think the SEC's decline is a real phenomenon, that Nick Saban's program has brought about, and that Lane benefited greatly from that being present when he stepped on board. And because of that, he enjoyed a great deal of room for error.

Let me try another way of explaining my point. We won the SEC twice from 2007-2013. And then 3 straight years 2014-2016. The SEC has not been won three times in a row since Florida did it in the 90s. Is this because of Lane Kiffin's prowess as an OC/QB coach? Or is it because Alabama so far and away better than the rest of the league? I imagine the obvious answer is some combination of the two, and I agree, but I'd say it's far more the latter than the former.
 

B1GTide

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Yeah, but again, I'm not trying to say Kiffin did nothing while he was here. I just think the SEC's decline is a real phenomenon, that Nick Saban's program has brought about, and that Lane benefited greatly from that being present when he stepped on board. And because of that, he enjoyed a great deal of room for error.

Let me try another way of explaining my point. We won the SEC twice from 2007-2013. And then 3 straight years 2014-2016. The SEC has not been won three times in a row since Florida did it in the 90s. Is this because of Lane Kiffin's prowess as an OC/QB coach? Or is it because Alabama so far and away better than the rest of the league? I imagine the obvious answer is some combination of the two, and I agree, but I'd say it's far more the latter than the former.
Agreed - take away the kick-6 and you are on a 5 year run as SEC champions right now.
 

81usaf92

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Yeah, but again, I'm not trying to say Kiffin did nothing while he was here. I just think the SEC's decline is a real phenomenon, that Nick Saban's program has brought about, and that Lane benefited greatly from that being present when he stepped on board. And because of that, he enjoyed a great deal of room for error.

Let me try another way of explaining my point. We won the SEC twice from 2007-2013. And then 3 straight years 2014-2016. The SEC has not been won three times in a row since Florida did it in the 90s. Is this because of Lane Kiffin's prowess as an OC/QB coach? Or is it because Alabama so far and away better than the rest of the league? I imagine the obvious answer is some combination of the two, and I agree, but I'd say it's far more the latter than the former.
My point of the qbs was on his recruiting at the position compared to the others. But since you want to draw me into your view of the SEC... I'll bite

I will say that winning a SEC championship is way harder than what it was in 2009 and 2011, but winning the SECCG is way easier since 2013. Meaning the west got stronger while the east got weaker. Winning the western crown is more than winning the LSU-Bama game it is surviving a gauntlet of great competition. Since 2013 Bama, aTm, and LSU have remained the same, but Ole Miss, MSU, and Arky are legit threats in the west. The only inconsistency is Auburn. But compare the west from 2008-2013 to now and you'll clearly see that it has gone from being Bama, LSU, and occasionally Auburn to being anyone's game. Yes Bama has won 3 straight, but it has been harder to get to Atlanta than it was from 2008-2012.
 

RTR91

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Since you brought up the qb situation... imagine if Kiffin had AJ or Gmac. Also look at how meh our qb pool got under Nuss and Mac, and look at how it is now. Also look at Mac and Nuss are with qbs at Florida.
I've often wondered what he could have done with the 2012 offense. Would have been unreal.
 

TideEngineer08

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My point of the qbs was on his recruiting at the position compared to the others. But since you want to draw me into your view of the SEC... I'll bite

I will say that winning a SEC championship is way harder than what it was in 2009 and 2011, but winning the SECCG is way easier since 2013. Meaning the west got stronger while the east got weaker. Winning the western crown is more than winning the LSU-Bama game it is surviving a gauntlet of great competition. Since 2013 Bama, aTm, and LSU have remained the same, but Ole Miss, MSU, and Arky are legit threats in the west. The only inconsistency is Auburn. But compare the west from 2008-2013 to now and you'll clearly see that it has gone from being Bama, LSU, and occasionally Auburn to being anyone's game. Yes Bama has won 3 straight, but it has been harder to get to Atlanta than it was from 2008-2012.
I don't know that I would agree about Ole Miss, MSU, and Arkansas. Especially Arkansas. All of them are tough outs, but none of them have been a realistic threat to win the division. Ole Miss has certainly generated a lot of noise and got us twice in a row, so I understand where you are coming from. But looking back over each season, in hindsight, neither of those three ever really threatened to win the division. MSU got closest in 2014, but then wilted at the end of the season. Ole Miss get a jump start on us in 14/15, but by the end they had knocked themselves out. Arkansas has never been in the running in November. I believe LSU has steadily gotten worse since 2011. Auburn has definitely been inconsistent. And Texas A&M has not been a threat for anything since 2013.

The West has certainly been the tougher division since 2013, I will agree. I mean, I wouldn't even say it is a stretch to say it has been the toughest in the country and far superior to the East, and that your point of winning the SEC title game has been easier than actually making it through the West is definitely true. But I still say we have been head and shoulders above even the Western division even during it's heyday. When you consider that only Ole Miss has gotten us in conference the past three seasons, and those two games took us turning the ball over what, 9 times total? And yet they still had to beat us in dramatic fashion? (Well, 2015 was not necessarily a dramatic finish, but still a one score ball game). Even last year's game which ended 48-43 had several self-inflicted gaffes or blown calls that helped them jump out to a big lead. We have been the much better ball club, but shot ourselves in the foot in all three games.

You are correct about Lane's QB recruiting, and that's why I say he didn't just sit there and do nothing. And yes, looking back, if we were running his offense in 2013? Well let's just say I agree with B1G that we would be on a 5 year SEC championship streak. All we needed was one play in that final regular season game and we're demolishing Missouri in the SEC championship before knocking off Winston and FSU in Pasadena.

But again, how have things changed so dramatically in a league in which repeat champions had not happened since 1997/1998, that we've now got a 3 year run going?
 

81usaf92

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I don't know that I would agree about Ole Miss, MSU, and Arkansas. Especially Arkansas. All of them are tough outs, but none of them have been a realistic threat to win the division. Ole Miss has certainly generated a lot of noise and got us twice in a row, so I understand where you are coming from. But looking back over each season, in hindsight, neither of those three ever really threatened to win the division. MSU got closest in 2014, but then wilted at the end of the season. Ole Miss get a jump start on us in 14/15, but by the end they had knocked themselves out. Arkansas has never been in the running in November. I believe LSU has steadily gotten worse since 2011. Auburn has definitely been inconsistent. And Texas A&M has not been a threat for anything since 2013.

The West has certainly been the tougher division since 2013, I will agree. I mean, I wouldn't even say it is a stretch to say it has been the toughest in the country and far superior to the East, and that your point of winning the SEC title game has been easier than actually making it through the West is definitely true. But I still say we have been head and shoulders above even the Western division even during it's heyday. When you consider that only Ole Miss has gotten us in conference the past three seasons, and those two games took us turning the ball over what, 9 times total? And yet they still had to beat us in dramatic fashion? (Well, 2015 was not necessarily a dramatic finish, but still a one score ball game). Even last year's game which ended 48-43 had several self-inflicted gaffes or blown calls that helped them jump out to a big lead. We have been the much better ball club, but shot ourselves in the foot in all three games.

You are correct about Lane's QB recruiting, and that's why I say he didn't just sit there and do nothing. And yes, looking back, if we were running his offense in 2013? Well let's just say I agree with B1G that we would be on a 5 year SEC championship streak. All we needed was one play in that final regular season game and we're demolishing Missouri in the SEC championship before knocking off Winston and FSU in Pasadena.

But again, how have things changed so dramatically in a league in which repeat champions had not happened since 1997/1998, that we've now got a 3 year run going?
Look at the scores in 09,11,and 12 against the western teams not named aTm and LSU and compare them to the scores from 14-16. We aren't blowing folks out in the west, except aTm, like we were doing in the first 3 championships. That either points to the west catching up but still atleast an arm's reach away to Bama, or we are playing down to folks for half a season. I think the former is more true than the latter.
 

TRU

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IMHO Kiffen graded out as a B+ coach. He was darn good when he did not let his ego get in his way, but he let his ego get in the way far too often. As a person, he was a D. Not a mass murderer, but pretty horrible nonetheless.
 

CrimsonProf

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Kiffin mostly did a great job but his tendencies were starting to get the best of him towards the end of his tenure.

And his personal problems - and they were problems - were as bad as bad can be - to the point that it was a team issue. No other way to say it.
 

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