The policy and politics of Trumpism

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CharminTide

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This is why Trump's lies are a threat to the country. Just ask any authoritarian about the power and importance of state propaganda.

The Hill: Poll: Majority of travel ban supporters say fake ‘Bowling Green massacre’ justifies executive order
Roughly half of Americans who support President Trump’s controversial executive order on refugees and immigrants say the ban is justified following the nonexistent "Bowling Green massacre," according to a new poll by the left-leaning Public Policy Polling...

Of those who support it, 51 percent thought Conway’s remarks about the [fake] massacre showed good reason to pursue the Jan. 27 order. Only about 23 percent of the ban’s supporters said the ban couldn't use the massacre as justification.
 

Crimson1967

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My lib friends keep quoting the pope on Facebook. I never knew a guy who was head of an organization that discriminated against women and was anti-choice had such a left wing following.


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LA4Bama

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This is why Trump's lies are a threat to the country. Just ask any authoritarian about the power and importance of state propaganda.

The Hill: Poll: Majority of travel ban supporters say fake ‘Bowling Green massacre’ justifies executive order
First, this seems like a comedy show tactic more than a serious poll or statistic. I feel like Jay Leno should have been conducting this "poll". Mainly it shows that people are kind of complacent if not stupid and normally are not paying much attention. It does not show that they were actually persuaded by a lie to support a position they would otherwise not have supported.

However, that does happen from time to time, for example: link (from a CNN commentary from 2013 -- this is a good quick read. I encourage you to click it.)
While promoting Obamacare, Obama told Americans that they could keep their health insurance if they wanted to. That turned out to not be true for some, and Obama has been accused of lying. Some political pundits warn that Obama's "lie" will undo his second term. They say Americans won't forgive a president who violates their trust. It's a good sound-bite, but it's bad history. A great leader must "be a great pretender and dissembler," Machiavelli said in "The Prince." And so should a president, some historians say.
You might say lying is the verbal lubricant that keeps the Oval Office engine running.
Probably the worst lie in my lifetime, from the viewpoint of the consequences, was telling us Iraq had WMD. We may never recover from that. So please note I'm not defending lying nor am I defending Trump. But my bigger point would be that, as with so many things today, there is a kind of hysteria about Trump that is completely disproportionate to everything that has been long tolerated if not celebrated so long as it was "for our side".
 
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cbi1972

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Probably the worst lie in my lifetime, from the viewpoint of the consequences, was telling us Iraq had WMD. We may never recover from that. So please note I'm not defending lying nor am I defending Trump. But my bigger point would be that, as with so many things today, there is a kind of hysteria about Trump that is completely disproportionate to everything that has been long tolerated if not celebrated so long as it was "for our side".
That "lie" was completely unnecessary, as Saddam's interference with inspections alone was reason enough to renew hostilities.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Actually, that was the convention of the people of South carolina, the same agency (but obviously not the same members) that had ratified the Constitution on May 23, 1788. The Convention of 1860 just repealed their early ratification and reverted to the status they would have had, had they never ratified in the first place: an independent state.
And this was before Lincoln took office.
Lincoln was only responsible for the secessions of Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee and North Carolina. And those were in week six of the Lincoln Administration.
I don't argue over history with you, but I'd say that's a tad bit of splitting hairs only because it was the election of Lincoln that put the fast forward on secession. Yeah, the Inauguration Day was March 4 back then (which I knew) but that's still not a good start to your Presidency was my only real point.
 

selmaborntidefan

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This is why Trump's lies are a threat to the country. Just ask any authoritarian about the power and importance of state propaganda.

The Hill: Poll: Majority of travel ban supporters say fake ‘Bowling Green massacre’ justifies executive order

I didn't even have to look to know you were citing the "Let's Give 'Em Some Satire" PPP group.

It's not called satire, but it should be labeled as such.

Here's the question these morons asked:

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: ‘the Bowling Green massacre shows why we need Donald Trump’s executive order on immigration?’

Just remember there was actually a substantial chunk of people (estimated at 11% at the time) who thought GHW Bush and GW Bush were the same person running.
 

CharminTide

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Mainly it shows that people are kind of complacent if not stupid and normally are not paying much attention. It does not show that they were actually persuaded by a lie to support a position they would otherwise not have supported.
Propaganda doesn't work on people who pay attention. But most people aren't persuaded from some informed, alternative point of view. They merely believe what a figure of authority tells them. Which is why propaganda works, and why it's dangerous.

Probably the worst lie in my lifetime, from the viewpoint of the consequences, was telling us Iraq had WMD. We may never recover from that. So please note I'm not defending lying nor am I defending Trump. But my bigger point would be that, as with so many things today, there is a kind of hysteria about Trump that is completely disproportionate to everything that has been long tolerated if not celebrated so long as it was "for our side".
I never agreed with Bush on Iraq, and I criticized Obama's statement once it became clear the version of ACA that would be passed would not allow what he promised.

But I feel you're bending over backwards to normalize Trump here. Neither Bush nor Obama lied on a daily basis and sent spokespeople on TV to invent alternative facts. All presidents have an abrasive relationship with the press from time to time, but neither Obama nor Bush threatened to change laws to more easily take legal action against the media. They were not constantly saying or tweeting insults towards major news organizations. They were not doubling down on obvious lies once caught and exposed. No person or president is perfect, but Trump's confabulations are orders of magnitude beyond anything we've seen in modern politics. Don't injure yourself trying to twist his actions into anything but what they are.
 

selmaborntidefan

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First, this seems like a comedy show tactic more than a serious poll or statistic.
That's exactly what it is - which would be okay if they were Stephen Colbert and NOT a group that touts itself as an accurate Democratic polling organization.
 

CharminTide

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I didn't even have to look to know you were citing the "Let's Give 'Em Some Satire" PPP group.

It's not called satire, but it should be labeled as such.

Here's the question these morons asked:

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: ‘the Bowling Green massacre shows why we need Donald Trump’s executive order on immigration?’

Just remember there was actually a substantial chunk of people (estimated at 11% at the time) who thought GHW Bush and GW Bush were the same person running.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your criticism of PPP. Some of their polling is fine, and some of their questions are completely off-the-wall, only asked in an effort to make a headline. It's perfectly reasonable to accuse this one of being in that latter group.

It sounds like your argument is that many people are dumb. I'm simply arguing that dumb people are easy to manipulate. They come running to dogwhistles faster than my husky and accept gaslighting as a normal facet of human communication.
 

81usaf92

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Propaganda doesn't work on people who pay attention. But most people aren't persuaded from some informed, alternative point of view. They merely believe what a figure of authority tells them. Which is why propaganda works, and why it's dangerous.


I never agreed with Bush on Iraq, and I criticized Obama's statement once it became clear the version of ACA that would be passed would not allow what he promised.

But I feel you're bending over backwards to normalize Trump here. Neither Bush nor Obama lied on a daily basis and sent spokespeople on TV to invent alternative facts. All presidents have an abrasive relationship with the press from time to time, but neither Obama nor Bush threatened to change laws to more easily take legal action against the media. They were not constantly saying or tweeting insults towards major news organizations. They were not doubling down on obvious lies once caught and exposed. No person or president is perfect, but Trump's confabulations are orders of magnitude beyond anything we've seen in modern politics. Don't injure yourself trying to twist his actions into anything but what they are.
Meh. I see trump as a Scottish nationalist party member who won the chair due to the tories and labor parties having incompetent candidates. Yeah his platform is more right than your typical conservative, but with the checks and balances there is no real threat to democracy without the military being significantly behind him.
 

CharminTide

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Meh. I see trump as a Scottish nationalist party member who won the chair due to the tories and labor parties having incompetent candidates. Yeah his platform is more right than your typical conservative, but with the checks and balances there is no real threat to democracy without the military being significantly behind him.
Maybe so. I work with a few Russian ex-pats. They say our institutions are stronger than Russia's were, and we just have to trust that they'll hold.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Don't get me wrong, I agree with your criticism of PPP. Some of their polling is fine, and some of their questions are completely off-the-wall, only asked in an effort to make a headline. It's perfectly reasonable to accuse this one of being in that latter group.

It sounds like your argument is that many people are dumb. I'm simply arguing that dumb people are easy to manipulate. They come running to dogwhistles faster than my husky and accept gaslighting as a normal facet of human communication.

I'll agree we have a substantial number of dumb people but here's the catch - they don't suddenly become "smart" when the liberal candidate wins (no reflection on you). Yes, voters are easily manipulated but let's not pretend that the right has some sort of exclusive domain on that.

The left in this country has played "you're a racist" so long that it's kind of like a Les Miles fake field goal attempt - totally expected, always stupid, and ultimately wrong. The TRAGEDY of that trade on race is that REAL and actual examples of racism get arbitrarily dismissed because of the argument.

That being said, I think there ARE concerns going forward. I never wanted this guy OR his general election opponent so.....shame on the primary voters.
 
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