The policy and politics of Trumpism

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TIDE-HSV

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Why, that's one of the dumbest laws I ever read. It's like America set itself up for failure if we ever got a narcissist for president.
ETA. It's literally probably worse than when Congress basically let presidents declare war without calling it war so they do not have to get congressional approval. (And I thought that was one of the worst laws until tonight)[/QUOTE]I generally track these things and it's far worse than I thought. I don't understand why a president would ever end a state of emergency, particularly this president...
 

uafanataum

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Why, that's one of the dumbest laws I ever read. It's like America set itself up for failure if we ever got a narcissist for president.
ETA. It's literally probably worse than when Congress basically let presidents declare war without calling it war so they do not have to get congressional approval. (And I thought that was one of the worst laws until tonight)
I generally track these things and it's far worse than I thought. I don't understand why a president would ever end a state of emergency, particularly this president...[/QUOTE]

If he abuses this too much ( to the extent only Trump could) I think we may see a Julius Caesar type moment. At some point enough will be enough.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Read the second to the last paragraph in the article. A willing congress could significantly reduce the emergency powers of the president. Ofcourse, one chamber of congress is run by McConell.
Are you talking about this paragraph:

By contrast, the dangers posed by emergency powers that are written into statute can be mitigated through the simple expedient of changing the law. Committees in the House could begin this process now by undertaking a thorough review of existing emergency powers and declarations. Based on that review, Congress could repeal the laws that are obsolete or unnecessary. It could revise others to include stronger protections against abuse. It could issue new criteria for emergency declarations, require a connection between the nature of the emergency and the powers invoked, and prohibit indefinite emergencies. It could limit the powers set forth in peads.
You do realize that all of these actions require a presidential signature, or the override of a veto? I don't draw much comfort from these suggestions because I can't see Trump signing anything reducing his power, even if McConnell had a change of heart, difficult for a man with no heart to do...
 

bobstod

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So where does all this leave us? The shutdown continues. No progress is being made on ANY legislation. The president is threatening to declare a national emergency, giving him the power to shut down or at least exert control over the internet. He can probably shut down CNN and NBC. He might be able to jail his political enemies. He most certainly can fire the Special Counsel. If he take the Emergency Powers step, we are living in an autocracy run by a megalomaniac who appears to be on drugs, and who is probably beholden to both Russia and Saudi Arabia. Is it time to cave and give him 5B for the wall?
 

UAH

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So where does all this leave us? The shutdown continues. No progress is being made on ANY legislation. The president is threatening to declare a national emergency, giving him the power to shut down or at least exert control over the internet. He can probably shut down CNN and NBC. He might be able to jail his political enemies. He most certainly can fire the Special Counsel. If he take the Emergency Powers step, we are living in an autocracy run by a megalomaniac who appears to be on drugs, and who is probably beholden to both Russia and Saudi Arabia. Is it time to cave and give him 5B for the wall?
To answer that one might need to pose the question... Do you want to give him his signature victory to enable him to win the 2020 election or throw the ball to the Supreme Court before we go further down a path that cannot be retraced?
 

Chukker Veteran

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So where does all this leave us? The shutdown continues. No progress is being made on ANY legislation. The president is threatening to declare a national emergency, giving him the power to shut down or at least exert control over the internet. He can probably shut down CNN and NBC. He might be able to jail his political enemies. He most certainly can fire the Special Counsel. If he take the Emergency Powers step, we are living in an autocracy run by a megalomaniac who appears to be on drugs, and who is probably beholden to both Russia and Saudi Arabia. Is it time to cave and give him 5B for the wall?
No, a thousand times no. Once you give in to a blackmailing hostage taker, there's no end to it.

And now we are told the FBI opened an official investigation shortly after the election into whether Trump is a Russian puppet or an operative.

The pot can't keep simmering forever, it's got to boil over at some point.
 

twofbyc

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So where does all this leave us? The shutdown continues. No progress is being made on ANY legislation. The president is threatening to declare a national emergency, giving him the power to shut down or at least exert control over the internet. He can probably shut down CNN and NBC. He might be able to jail his political enemies. He most certainly can fire the Special Counsel. If he take the Emergency Powers step, we are living in an autocracy run by a megalomaniac who appears to be on drugs, and who is probably beholden to both Russia and Saudi Arabia. Is it time to cave and give him 5B for the wall?
Agree with others. Trump isn’t negotiating, he’s lying. He’s blackmailing, or trying to (something thugs are good at but Trump is just a punk).
If Trump would agree to the DACA plan that was part of an earlier bill that passed, he should get his money. If he won’t agree to that he deserves and should get nothing.
Morons on Faux News, Rash and Horseface all talked him out of the DACA deal. Leave it shut down until everyone quits working, and that will happen sooner than you think. And when that happens, the government will reopen - I don’t think McConnell wants to drive back and forth to Kentucky.



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bobstod

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By sea said:
If Trump would agree to the DACA plan that was part of an earlier bill that passed, he should get his money. If he won’t agree to that he deserves and should get nothing.

I totally agree that he deserves nothing for his blatantly political use of good people's paychecks (but he can relate, right?). My point is that once he takes the next threatened step, we have no clear way to hinder his reckless trashing of every freedom and right given us by the courts and the constitution. Can there be any doubt that he admires dictators? Do you doubt that he believes that if only he could make every decision based on his emotions and his infallible 'gut' feelings and without having to read anything or think deeply, that the world would be a 'tremendously, beautiful place full of winning'! I admit to fearing deeply that we are on the brink of the end of America as we know and love it. If we allow this maniac to suspend any of the last few checks and balances to his destructive whimsy we may just slide over the edge...
 

UAH

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Agree with others. Trump isn’t negotiating, he’s lying. He’s blackmailing, or trying to (something thugs are good at but Trump is just a punk).
If Trump would agree to the DACA plan that was part of an earlier bill that passed, he should get his money. If he won’t agree to that he deserves and should get nothing.
Morons on Faux News, Rash and Horseface all talked him out of the DACA deal. Leave it shut down until everyone quits working, and that will happen sooner than you think. And when that happens, the government will reopen - I don’t think McConnell wants to drive back and forth to Kentucky.



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Not to mention the fact that months would be required to acquire land to build a foot of wall! In the meantime $ millions of drugs drive through the ports of entry every day due to lack of the proper technology.

One fact that occurred to me is how the MAGA ranchers are going to feel when the government cuts their ranches in half in order to build a wall. Let alone the fact that much of this land is mountainous desert with no roads for access. So remote as to being practically impossible for other than the the most fit well equipped human being to pass through.

It is not about building a wall. It is about the ridiculous campaign slogan "I will build a wall and Mexico will pay for it!"
 

92tide

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By sea said:
If Trump would agree to the DACA plan that was part of an earlier bill that passed, he should get his money. If he won’t agree to that he deserves and should get nothing.

I totally agree that he deserves nothing for his blatantly political use of good people's paychecks (but he can relate, right?). My point is that once he takes the next threatened step, we have no clear way to hinder his reckless trashing of every freedom and right given us by the courts and the constitution. Can there be any doubt that he admires dictators? Do you doubt that he believes that if only he could make every decision based on his emotions and his infallible 'gut' feelings and without having to read anything or think deeply, that the world would be a 'tremendously, beautiful place full of winning'! I admit to fearing deeply that we are on the brink of the end of America as we know and love it. If we allow this maniac to suspend any of the last few checks and balances to his destructive whimsy we may just slide over the edge...
this is what "the people" voted for. i hope that a significant number of them realize that what they voted for is really bad and start voting to fix that.
 

UAH

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By sea said:
If Trump would agree to the DACA plan that was part of an earlier bill that passed, he should get his money. If he won’t agree to that he deserves and should get nothing.

I totally agree that he deserves nothing for his blatantly political use of good people's paychecks (but he can relate, right?). My point is that once he takes the next threatened step, we have no clear way to hinder his reckless trashing of every freedom and right given us by the courts and the constitution. Can there be any doubt that he admires dictators? Do you doubt that he believes that if only he could make every decision based on his emotions and his infallible 'gut' feelings and without having to read anything or think deeply, that the world would be a 'tremendously, beautiful place full of winning'! I admit to fearing deeply that we are on the brink of the end of America as we know and love it. If we allow this maniac to suspend any of the last few checks and balances to his destructive whimsy we may just slide over the edge...
I don't disagree with you about the danger. We have seen this coming even before he was president. I would ask you however, isn't this the same type of thinking that led to Munich in the 1930's. Would he stop with the wall or would there be a next time where he undertakes the many abuses of power you enumerated above.

I can only hope that Mueller does not allow the Trump AG and White House to submerge his report.
 

twofbyc

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By sea said:
If Trump would agree to the DACA plan that was part of an earlier bill that passed, he should get his money. If he won’t agree to that he deserves and should get nothing.

I totally agree that he deserves nothing for his blatantly political use of good people's paychecks (but he can relate, right?). My point is that once he takes the next threatened step, we have no clear way to hinder his reckless trashing of every freedom and right given us by the courts and the constitution. Can there be any doubt that he admires dictators? Do you doubt that he believes that if only he could make every decision based on his emotions and his infallible 'gut' feelings and without having to read anything or think deeply, that the world would be a 'tremendously, beautiful place full of winning'! I admit to fearing deeply that we are on the brink of the end of America as we know and love it. If we allow this maniac to suspend any of the last few checks and balances to his destructive whimsy we may just slide over the edge...
I’m not at all convinced the courts will give him a pass. If they do, we’re screwed.
Roberts doesn’t like him. He will lean on precedent. Plus, as has been mentioned, the time it will take to implement this will push it beyond 2020 (if he gets his way), and he will have a Democratic Congress to deal with if by some curse he gets re-elected (which I’ll bet even money right now ain’t happening). He still might resign soon (to save his kids from being indicted). So I’m not abandoning all hope.
Yeah, it looks bad. I’m still hoping Americans will grow some cojones and strike; so Trump fires all the air traffic controllers - who’s he gonna replace them with? If just those who don’t support him and his wall strike, the country is at a standstill in 48-72 hours. We can’t be forced to work at gunpoint (we all have guns too).
I’m ready to tear it all down and start over because I don’t see the country recovering from this. Evil has been loosed on the land and it’s not leaving willingly.


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selmaborntidefan

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There are certainly centrist on each side which mirrors a large portion of Americans who lie in the middle ground. It is difficult to see a left that has moved at all particularly looking at FDR and LBJ in terms of legislative accomplishments.
And there are a bunch of conservative Democrats now like there were there then modified radicalism, right?

And there a bunch of liberal Republicans that a President has to work with even to get something going, right?

That's what I'm talking about.


Let me also point this out: the primary process that really went full nonsense in 1972 has caused much of this. Almost definition the activists who get involved in party politics are "true believers" that have a specific goal in mind whether outlawing abortion or free college. These are the people who get revved up and spend their lives working on this and they control the nomination process to a large degree. The Democrats suffered first in this thing by barfing up McGovern and Mondale and then fleeing to Dukakis out of fear of Jesse Jackson winning it. (Carter won because eight liberals split that vote and conservatives/moderates who voted in 1976 and have shrunk to almost nothing voted for Carter out of fear of George Wallace winning it). The Republicans tended to be more authoritarian ("it's so and so's turn") and didn't divide their votes proportionally in the primaries in most states as the Democrats did.

My point is that the rest of us who aren't party members of either party (unless you're in an open primary state) are stuck with whoever the activists barf up for us.

And most of the time the centrists in the party get whacked by the ranting lunatics in the party. It's more prevalent in recent years with GOP dogmatism, no argument there, but Blanche Lincoln suffered the same fate in Arkansas in 2010. The unions didn't like her vote (but never mind that Arkansas had the lowest union membership in the USA) so they targeted her in a summer primary. She won, but they bloodied her so badly she got creamed. I live in Ark when she was elected and let me tell ya - she was a female Bill Clinton in terms of convincing you she was in agreement with your side (whichever one that was) by not actually answering the question you asked.


Anyone who makes the "mistake" nowadays of trying to do something with the other party is going to get whacked in a primary. That is the direct result of the loss of centrist governing in both parties.

An admittedly superficial look would say that with the Clinton's we began a rightward drift that was picked up and weaponized by Dick Cheney to an entirely new virulent strain of right wing extremism that we see in evidence today. You are either for us or our bitter enemy that forces people to move far right to make any compromise at all. Case in point the approach Trump is taking to demand his border wall!
Bush weaponized that in the fallout of 9/11, and I was screaming bloody murder about it then.

(I've never been convinced Dick Cheney was near the "man behind the curtain" a lot of folks want to say he was. Cheney was one of the most popular guys in both parties going back to when he was Ford's chief of staff).


And FTR, the Clintons didn't "start" what's going on now any more than Lee Atwater "started" gutter politics. They all benefited from it, but none began it.
 

TIDE-HSV

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And there are a bunch of conservative Democrats now like there were there then modified radicalism, right?

And there a bunch of liberal Republicans that a President has to work with even to get something going, right?

That's what I'm talking about.


Let me also point this out: the primary process that really went full nonsense in 1972 has caused much of this. Almost definition the activists who get involved in party politics are "true believers" that have a specific goal in mind whether outlawing abortion or free college. These are the people who get revved up and spend their lives working on this and they control the nomination process to a large degree. The Democrats suffered first in this thing by barfing up McGovern and Mondale and then fleeing to Dukakis out of fear of Jesse Jackson winning it. (Carter won because eight liberals split that vote and conservatives/moderates who voted in 1976 and have shrunk to almost nothing voted for Carter out of fear of George Wallace winning it). The Republicans tended to be more authoritarian ("it's so and so's turn") and didn't divide their votes proportionally in the primaries in most states as the Democrats did.

My point is that the rest of us who aren't party members of either party (unless you're in an open primary state) are stuck with whoever the activists barf up for us.

And most of the time the centrists in the party get whacked by the ranting lunatics in the party. It's more prevalent in recent years with GOP dogmatism, no argument there, but Blanche Lincoln suffered the same fate in Arkansas in 2010. The unions didn't like her vote (but never mind that Arkansas had the lowest union membership in the USA) so they targeted her in a summer primary. She won, but they bloodied her so badly she got creamed. I live in Ark when she was elected and let me tell ya - she was a female Bill Clinton in terms of convincing you she was in agreement with your side (whichever one that was) by not actually answering the question you asked.


Anyone who makes the "mistake" nowadays of trying to do something with the other party is going to get whacked in a primary. That is the direct result of the loss of centrist governing in both parties.



Bush weaponized that in the fallout of 9/11, and I was screaming bloody murder about it then.

(I've never been convinced Dick Cheney was near the "man behind the curtain" a lot of folks want to say he was. Cheney was one of the most popular guys in both parties going back to when he was Ford's chief of staff).


And FTR, the Clintons didn't "start" what's going on now any more than Lee Atwater "started" gutter politics. They all benefited from it, but none began it.
George H.W. disagrees... :D
 

twofbyc

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I don't disagree with you about the danger. We have seen this coming even before he was president. I would ask you however, isn't this the same type of thinking that led to Munich in the 1930's. Would he stop with the wall or would there be a next time where he undertakes the many abuses of power you enumerated above.

I can only hope that Mueller does not allow the Trump AG and White House to submerge his report.
It will go to Congress; they’ll subpoena him and it, if necessary.
There is no “reverse” on this train. It’s going to reach its destination, whatever that may be.



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bobstod

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UAH said:
I don't disagree with you about the danger. We have seen this coming even before he was president. I would ask you however, isn't this the same type of thinking that led to Munich in the 1930's. Would he stop with the wall or would there be a next time where he undertakes the many abuses of power you enumerated above.

I can only hope that Mueller does not allow the Trump AG and White House to submerge his report.

Amen to the last sentence! And yes, I admit you are right. The same threat would be short in coming. It seems he is backing away from that threat today, which Pray God he does.

I have often wondered what my actions would have been had I been a white, non-Jewish German citizen in the middle 1930s. I tend to follow rules. I was a bigot as a teen. It may have depended on what age I was when Hitler was in his most dominant stage...1938, 1939. If I had been a stupid teenager I may have been convinced. The propaganda machine was powerful. I sure hope I would have found a way to escape....
 

TIDE-HSV

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I can’t believe Trumpers actually trust this slug.
Nixon says hello.

https://apple.news/APZ4WuB8vSG2uO3R4jl6T7w


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It is a gut emotional thing which I don't understand. He has already surpassed Nixon. Nixon had not sold out to a foreign, enemy power. The only question now is how much it will take to nudge consciences into action - seventeen Republican senators. Pence will then pardon Trump and all his gang and then couldn't be elected dog catcher...
 

twofbyc

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It is a gut emotional thing which I don't understand. He has already surpassed Nixon. Nixon had not sold out to a foreign, enemy power. The only question now is how much it will take to nudge consciences into action - seventeen Republican senators. Pence will then pardon Trump and all his gang and then couldn't be elected dog catcher...
I’m involved online with some folks from Europe - Britain especially - and some of them don’t really like him but maintain “he does what he says he’ll do”; when I point out to them the fallacy of such a belief, they retreat to confessing they don’t know much about American politics.
I think it’s his bluff and bluster that attracts some, character content notwithstanding. They just automatically believe him.
Sad.
I am leaning more and more to his resignation to keep his kids from being indicted. I don’t think he’d let Ivanka be arrested. Of course he can do nothing about the State of New York (thank God).


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