The policy and politics of Trumpism

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chanson78

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So out of curiosity, would you be in favor of significantly reducing immigration (immigration being one way the federal government interferes in the U.S. markets)? No more than 300K-500K new immigrants to the U.S. per year?

Edit: I'm bemused by the view that a corporation is something other than people.
A corporation is not a person, nor is it necessarily the sum of its parts. Until people can live > 200 years the corporation as a legal entity is able to behave in completely different ways than people ever can/could/would. The very nature of a corporation incentivizes behavior that is actively disincentivized in society were it to be performed by a real person.

Until the means to actually put a corporation in prison exists, there is and always will be a demonstrable difference in the realities that exist for a flesh and blood person, and that of a corporate person.
 

TIDE-HSV

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A corporation is not a person, nor is it necessarily the sum of its parts. Until people can live > 200 years the corporation as a legal entity is able to behave in completely different ways than people ever can/could/would. The very nature of a corporation incentivizes behavior that is actively disincentivized in society were it to be performed by a real person.

Until the means to actually put a corporation in prison exists, there is and always will be a demonstrable difference in the realities that exist for a flesh and blood person, and that of a corporate person.
A corporation as a person is a convenient legal fiction which solves some legal problems. It was always regarded as such until the Supreme Court decided it should have free speech and its alphabet was money...
 

IMALOYAL1

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I'm not sure what your question really is. If you're talking about the executive branch, then they can't "pass laws" anyway. I think the Trump clan is basically paralyzed right now. The heat is too high for them to take advantage of their cozy relationship. I have no clue as to what your "classified emails" remark means...
Maybe I'm thick. Wasn't there much hubbub about wikileaks and classified emails. Accusations of Trump releasing classified or even Top Secret info to the Russians? The Russian "meddling" with our election, almost to the point they duped America into voting for Trump? It's seems to be insinuated depending on which news channel you put the TV on.

Does the Executive branch not have some influence on the[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legislative branch?[/FONT]
 

CajunCrimson

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Maybe I'm thick. Wasn't there much hubbub about wikileaks and classified emails. Accusations of Trump releasing classified or even Top Secret info to the Russians? The Russian "meddling" with our election, almost to the point they duped America into voting for Trump? It's seems to be insinuated depending on which news channel you put the TV on.

Does the Executive branch not have some influence on the[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Legislative branch?[/FONT]
It's called "The Executive Order"... and was used frequently be the previous administration as a way to circumvent Congress. Now Trump is using it in much the same way, but instead of promoting social causes, he's using it to manipulate the economy.
 

bama_wayne1

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I'm less certain that the free market is a panacea, especially given its failure to control tuition rates and loan practices thus far, and given the current Cabinet's many financial ties to lenders. To be clear, the problem is more pronounced with professional degree programs like law and medicine, where there is little incentive to offer students any support compared to the undergraduate sector. As we learned in another thread, tuition for these programs in other countries is about 4% what schools in the US charge. Why is that? And if market forces are the answer, why haven't they prevented this current situation?
The fact that so many Universities are government funded prevents them from being subject to market pressures to some extent, however if that system failed the private sector would most likely step in to perpetuate change. It seems to have made a dramatic shift in the last several decades. When I was younger even doctors with large student loans wound up rich within a decade or two. By rich I mean from a broke doctor struggling to get started to a doctor with an established practice that owned a lot of land and cattle....
 

bama_wayne1

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By your posting history I assume you lean libertarian or conservative, something like that. This s an issue libertarian amd conservative people can and should get behind. A basic form of slavery is debt servitude. From the ancient Greeks through the Christians to the founding fathers' concern about taxation and in many ways, debt for work is the enemy of freedom. That does not mean a person should never be asked to invest in his or her own future; I'm not taking the other extreme, but our present system is fundamentally flawed, becoming not only unsustainable but also immoral. If there is one issue I'd like that see left and right agree on in principle, it is that we cannot demand the youth put it themselves into indentured servitude in order to have permission to work.

Addition, from reading your following post... I agree present government policy is making this worse. But a free market solution will absolutely not fix it. We don't live in a primitive state of nature any more, so primitive laws don't get the job done. I am all for limited government, but not if that means infinite corporate power.
The only problem I see with that is the fact that a lot of young people make different choices. For example my two oldest sons went from high school to the military in response to 911. They did so against my wishes. Now they still have not completed a degree but both earn six figure incomes. So I'm betting a libertarian would believe that if you choose to be in servitude it is on you as there are other options available to you.
 

CharminTide

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Honest mistake, I'm sure.

Jared Kushner didn't disclose business ties to George Soros, Peter Thiel, and Goldman Sachs, or that he owes $1 billion in loans

Jared Kushner didn't disclose his business ties with George Soros, Peter Thiel, and Goldman Sachs, or that he owes $1 billion in loans, The Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday.

The top White House adviser and son-in-law of Trump failed to identify his part ownership of Cadre, a real-estate startup he founded, which links him to the Goldman Sachs Group and the mega-investors George Soros and Peter Thiel, sources told The Journal.

Kushner also failed to identify debt of more than $1 billion from 20 lenders and personal guarantees to pay more than $300 million of that, according to The Journal.
 

LA4Bama

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The system we currently have should never be mistaken for either a free or an open market, much less both. See below.




And that's the problem (or part of it). The government-industrial-banking complex are set up to give "the little guy" just enough to make him not rebel while rigging the game in favor of the corporations and the people who run them. As in literally rigging the game. Through laws that favor corporations and especially those that are already established and collude with others in their industry to use the law to limit competition. Sure, a new guy will pop up here and there and make billions with a great innovative idea or by finding a niche for that exploits an untapped market. Microsoft is an example. Google. Amazon. Even Walmart. And so on down the line. Then when they walk into success they want to close the door behind them. So-called "liberals" are all too happy to oblige with more regulations that limit competition and force prices higher. In the name of sticking it to the man they make it harder on the poor.Or by supporting government assistance that has the same effect (Remember student grants and loans were created to make college more affordable for the average person). Meanwhile, conservatives are all too happy to trade this or that so corporations can be more secure and hoard more capital. "It will drive growth!" is the mantra. Well, that's not entirely true in the current environment either. And most seem perfectly fine with the government taking your labor, thereby making you a slave (in a sense) for at least a good portion of the year. Taxing spending is one thing. Taxing your labor is another. And that's all an income tax does. And it seems only an academic matter until you consider practicalities like the disincentive on savings and the lack of choice you are given (not talking about the programs your taxes support, but rather your inability to control where your money goes for your own benefit and best use).
I realize I'm bouncing around a bit but the theme is central - you are given a little control but not too much....a little prosperity, but not too much...a little freedom but not too much. If they could they'd dispense with the niceties and just stick it to you to enrich themselves. The only thing keeping them in check is fear of torches and pitchforks (and yes, guns).
Heck, they even train us from the time we are a child in school that compliance is more important than truth or justice or the "American way". (Superman would be sooooo disappointed if the government hadn't made him submit to their authority - look up the history of comics to get that one).
And so now they pit us against one another and make us think that if we prop them up on a pedestal that they will make our lives better - whether by giving us things or by forgiving our loans or by giving us better prospects for employment or whatever. Just make us think they are on our side and when they do wrong we justify it so they don't have to even try and then blame it on the other guy for whatever goes wrong and then....rinse and repeat.
So some become disillusioned with government. Some with corporations. Others with their fellow pawns. Almost everyone with their fellow pawns. And the "dispensable" pawns would rather fight against each other than to turn on their masters in the government-industrial-banking complex and make them accountable to all of us for their misdeeds.
No, I'm not talking quite about a revolution in the traditional sense but more in the political sense. Only problem is we're too busy blaming each other for the misdeeds of the rich and powerful to figure out a strategy that might help all or most of us. And we think they're stupid. They got our number and they got it good. They are far better at the game.
So while we fight amongst ourselves over more or less or how much of this our that they laugh all the way to the bank. We don't analyze and they do. We just get stuck on this or that issue or this or that ideology and we are stuck there. And on they move.
Trump vs Clinton is only the latest prime example of this. We still go on about which would be better or what Obama did and rarely scrutinize our most closely held ideas - we just would like to convert others to worship our American gods of choice. (sorry, been watching it). We rarely consider how selfish our particular gods are. But it's telling that we believe in them so much we'd rather convert others or wish for them to die off naturally in sufficient numbers so our gods can implement their solution than to question ourselves intensely.
I've done that for the past several years and found that I have fewer answers than I thought. Oh, and that I shouldn't fight others battles for them. I prefer now to work for myself and when someone in power trips up it's on them. You screwed it up? Fix it. I'm not propping your sorry butt up any more.
Yeah, I'm rambling. Thanks for noticin'.
Wow, NT, you've been needing to get that off your chest :wink:.
 
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LA4Bama

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The only problem I see with that is the fact that a lot of young people make different choices. For example my two oldest sons went from high school to the military in response to 911. They did so against my wishes. Now they still have not completed a degree but both earn six figure incomes. So I'm betting a libertarian would believe that if you choose to be in servitude it is on you as there are other options available to you.
Well, assuming they came out if the militaryain good shape, I think they may have chosen very well. The military is certainly a special path not everyone can do, but the thing is you get paid to learn on the job and there is at least some room for growth as a person too. I feel that is a good model for us to use to consider more creative ways to get youth from point A to Z. I don't want to make this a libertarian v. Socialism debate, my point is that I feel the values of both sides should agree enough on this issue to make some actually creative solutions possible.

I don't think libertarian truly stands for "ha ha screw you, you chose to be in servitude to a system your elders built, now deal with it." However if that is the basic idea behind it then I see why it's fallen off in popularity.
 

CharminTide

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Trump tells Duterte of two U.S. nuclear subs in Korean waters

U.S. President Donald Trump told his Philippine counterpart that Washington has sent two nuclear submarines to waters off the Korean peninsula, the New York Times said, comments likely to raise questions about his handling of sensitive information.

Trump has said "a major, major conflict" with North Korea is possible because of its nuclear and missile programs and that all options are on the table but that he wants to resolve the crisis diplomatically.

Trump told Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte Washington had "a lot of firepower over there", according to the New York Times, which quoted a transcript of an April 29 call between the two. "We have two submarines — the best in the world. We have two nuclear submarines, not that we want to use them at all," the newspaper quoted Trump as telling Duterte, based on the transcript.
1) This definitely seems like something Duterte needed to know. Shall we share all our military and intelligence secrets with foreign despots now?

2) $50 says Trump thinks a nuclear sub is a submarine carrying nuclear weapons.
 

CharminTide

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Well, assuming they came out if the militaryain good shape, I think they may have chosen very well. The military is certainly a special path not everyone can do, but the thing is you get paid to learn on the job and there is at least some room for growth as a person too. I feel that is a good model for us to use to consider more creative ways to get youth from point A to Z. I don't want to make this a libertarian v. Socialism debate, my point is that I feel the values of both sides should agree enough on this issue to make some actually creative solutions possible.

I don't think libertarian truly stands for "ha ha screw you, you chose to be in servitude to a system your elders built, now deal with it." However if that is the basic idea behind it then I see why it's fallen off in popularity.
One of my buddies just started his dental residency and is also active duty Navy. DeVos wants to cancel the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, where someone employed by the military or other public service sector will have their federal loans forgiven after 10 years of service. He had been planning to discharge his debt through this program and is rather furious about her proposed changes to loan handling. He's worried he may have to resign his commission and get a more highly paying private job simply because of debt concerns.
 

LA4Bama

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Immigration is one factor that supports the current over-priced education system.
Okay. I believe you. I just don't see for myself the reasons so I can't offer any thought on how to make the two areas compatible. I know somewhat more about our education than about immigration and I think instead of telling people, well all your choices were freely taken so it's your own fault you are stuck, we can move beyond that blame style of thinking to find ways to offer good advice. After all we are talking about 18 yo making these choices and it's encouraged by the system already built, they are trying to be responsible, so it's not like we are talking about a bunch of prodigal sons who abandoned the farm to blow an inheritance. As I understand classic liberalism, it promotes autonomy as a value. By value, I mean that everyone's autonomy counts, not just the king's autonomy, and not just the well born. Somehow I think libertarianism today has lost touch with what made it a world view worth fighting for. A system that heads for a new feudalism, even one produced by a series of free choices, is not how I would understand classical liberal values to be realized.
 

Jon

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Trump tells Duterte of two U.S. nuclear subs in Korean waters



1) This definitely seems like something Duterte needed to know. Shall we share all our military and intelligence secrets with foreign despots now?

2) $50 says Trump thinks a nuclear sub is a submarine carrying nuclear weapons.
If you read the call transcript, he also praises Duerte for his drug war. You know the one where they are executing people on the streets without any due process, yeah that one gets praise, 9 thousand people killed so far (that we know of)
 

bama_wayne1

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One of my buddies just started his dental residency and is also active duty Navy. DeVos wants to cancel the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, where someone employed by the military or other public service sector will have their federal loans forgiven after 10 years of service. He had been planning to discharge his debt through this program and is rather furious about her proposed changes to loan handling. He's worried he may have to resign his commission and get a more highly paying private job simply because of debt concerns.
I hope he would be ok since he enlisted with that as part of the package, but who knows.... This is one place I believe there will be some difficulty in her making that stick. The DOD will not stand and watch themselves go to war without doctors serving to aid the warfighter. IF they go to the POTUS whomever it is at the time he will listen to them. They control way too many dollars to be ignored.
 

CharminTide

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I hope he would be ok since he enlisted with that as part of the package, but who knows.... This is one place I believe there will be some difficulty in her making that stick. The DOD will not stand and watch themselves go to war without doctors serving to aid the warfighter. IF they go to the POTUS whomever it is at the time he will listen to them. They control way too many dollars to be ignored.
Who knows. You only officially enroll in the program after the 10 year mark, IIRC, so technically no one is grandfathered in. The program was started 9 years ago, and the first round of students (about half a million people) have paid their public service and are expecting their remaining loan burden to be forgiven this Fall. We'll see what happens.
 

rgw

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Also, I believe the employees will have to pay taxes on the amount forgiven. May end up being a benefit that kinda screws you a tad but it is better than paying off the entire loan.
 

NationalTitles18

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Okay. I believe you. I just don't see for myself the reasons so I can't offer any thought on how to make the two areas compatible. I know somewhat more about our education than about immigration and I think instead of telling people, well all your choices were freely taken so it's your own fault you are stuck, we can move beyond that blame style of thinking to find ways to offer good advice. After all we are talking about 18 yo making these choices and it's encouraged by the system already built, they are trying to be responsible, so it's not like we are talking about a bunch of prodigal sons who abandoned the farm to blow an inheritance. As I understand classic liberalism, it promotes autonomy as a value. By value, I mean that everyone's autonomy counts, not just the king's autonomy, and not just the well born. Somehow I think libertarianism today has lost touch with what made it a world view worth fighting for. A system that heads for a new feudalism, even one produced by a series of free choices, is not how I would understand classical liberal values to be realized.
Libertarianism brands itself as the new classical liberalism. Close, but no cigar. There are some differences and schisms within the new movement itself.
 

rgw

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Libertarianism brands itself as the new classical liberalism. Close, but no cigar. There are some differences and schisms within the new movement itself.
Libertarianism, at least the American angle on it, has been a point of many jokes from me over the last few years.


Many who identify as libertarian seemingly just want to replace elected government with for-profit business. They wrap themselves up in "freer the market, the freer the people" reductive logic. It is really popular in the tech world because they love the wild west profiteering capable in a world where the lawmakers don't understand jack squat about technology. They want to keep the good times rolling and keep the government out of their profit making while they do things that ultimately will culminate in bringing the average person to their knees.
 
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