The policy and politics of Trumpism

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Bodhisattva

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You're talking deaths, he's talking illnesses. Not the same discussion, especially wrt health care costs.


Perhaps I wasn't clear - 'most deaths in the US' refers not to poor choices, but rather the big causes - heart disease, stroke, etc. Those are factually the big killers in the US (heart disease being far and away #1, the illness being largely preventable).

I'm not saying most people die from avoidable causes, but that the lifestyle choices most people make create many of the illnesses that are the big kilers. They all get rolled into one statistic.


Please don't be offended by this, but if anyone is moving the goalposts it's you - we're talking about healthcare costs and you've focused almost entirely on death. There's a lot of money spent before end of life costs.


Health costs stemming from obesity are massive and that is almost universally avoidable.


Fully aware, I am fully invested in helping many poor families in my community. Have been for years. I've posted many times of the uphill battle they face wrt eating healthy.

But chewing to live in a reckless manner is not owned by the poor - there are massive numbers of middle class (and higher income) folks who smoke, drink too much, don't exercise, are obese, etc. Most everyone - even the poor - have the choice to sit on their butts and smoke one rather than go for a run, do some bodyweight exercises, etc.


As you may recall I've been one of the people you speak of. For quite a few years I averaged over 80 hours/week between two jobs just to get by, and even that wasn't enough. I get it, but there are still choices as to what to eat, how much to eat, etc. Some choose poorly.



The part in bold is the part I have a problem with. Poverty makes obesity easy, yes, but it does not cause it. It literally does not.

I think we can cure a lot of ills (generally speaking) by reducing poverty, but it's an excuse, not a cause, for obesity, smoking, other poor lifestyle choices.

Again, none of this (regarding poverty ) is new to me - I've been knee deep in it for many, many years, seeing it first hand. I'm not blaming the poor for being poor, but I do blame people for their poor lifestyle choices, regardless of the reasoning. I hope I've not come across as dismissive about this - unlike most people, I've lived it, I understand it. Yet I don't accept that being poor, for example, means one has to be obese. Or working many hours means one must make poor choices.

I'm not insulated from it, but ultimately, if someone wants my help, they need to be wiling to address their own choices. I'm not going to give money to a poor person to help buy food if I find out they're using it for gambling, drugs, etc. I feel the same way about mandatory health insurance - our country is getting worse and worse wrt obesity, which is directly linked to many, many illnesses we spend billions each year treating, so it has to be addressed if people want everyone on board.


Two things:
1- I appreciate you taking the time to share this - while none of it break new ground for me personally, I do hope someone reads this and it opens their eyes to some aspects of poverty they've not considered.
2- I love your heart in this matter - you're obviously invested in this and the world needs more people will to do that.
I appreciate this post CA, as well as NT16's. It's nice to be able to have a discussion without all the socialist, juvenile drivel disguised as compassion.
 

Bodhisattva

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CA, following up on your mention of charity and helping the people of your community, I see that a lot of our activities are similar.

At my daughter's school there are a couple of families that have experienced the loss of a parent. The community has taken it upon themselves to assist and has for years. My wife and I, along with scores of other families, take turns providing meals and doing yard work and other odd chores. It's sad that those that advocate government seem to hold the concept of charity in contempt. Having a personal connection with your community is good for your soul. And the labor/money provided goes directly to the families. It's not consumed by bureaucracy or mismanaged or steered toward political allies.

My wife and I have for years sponsored the village where my wife was born in central Vietnam. We pay for the children's education, provide food, and send Christmas gifts. We do this through personal friends (and the Church) and not through the government, as most everything would be stolen. As it is, we still often have to pay "fees" to be able to assist the poor.

Now that our daughter is older, we will soon, as a family, be traveling with groups like Doctors Without Borders regularly. While most of the assistance will be from my wife, I'll do my part by hauling around medical supplies and playing amateur carpenter. It will be an invaluable experience for our daughter.

And we are always looking to do more.
 

Bodhisattva

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But it's not an unbreakable cycle. There's too much evidence otherwise.
As you may recall I've been one of the people you speak of. For quite a few years I averaged over 80 hours/week between two jobs just to get by, and even that wasn't enough. I get it, but there are still choices as to what to eat, how much to eat, etc. Some choose poorly.
Being born into poverty is one thing. Choosing to stay is something else entirely. If you are an able-bodied adult living in poverty, you almost assuredly have made a laundry list of bad choices.

I've mentioned this before .... I grew up poor. We didn't live on public assistance, but I remember my earliest Christmases involving no presents or decorations. At the time we were a family of five living in a travel trailer. Not a double wide or a single wide. A one bedroom travel trailer. And this was due to the many bad choices my father made. As I got older and started paying attention to the world around me, I decided I didn't want to be poor. Despite no emphasis from my parents about my education, I worked hard to make good grades. I got my education, worked hard (up to three jobs while in college), reinvested any disposable income, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's not a hard concept. It just takes the desire to better one's self. People can do or not do it, but the choice is theirs.

ETA: And, of course, I believe everyone knows my wife's story, which was far more dire than anything I experienced. Yet, she came here, learned the language, got a degree, went to work, got another degree, and so on. No she makes an incredible salary and she did it without expecting a handout from anyone.
 
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GreatMarch

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A lot of early votes were already in before this happened. You can't ignore that.
I am not so sure that the Republican wouldn't have gotten more votes from the incident considering the earlier article from The Guardian about Montana and its "white man's country". Besides, it appears the victim in the case needs to shut up after it is now known that he went to twitter talking about wanting to punch a 15 or 16 year old conservative in the face a couple of years back. Want to post that on twitter, fine, just don't get the sniffles and "you broke my glasses" when someone does something to you because you were being a ........
 

Tide1986

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Being born into poverty is one thing. Choosing to stay is something else entirely. If you are an able-bodied adult living in poverty, you almost assuredly have made a laundry list of bad choices.

I've mentioned this before .... I grew up poor. We didn't live on public assistance, but I remember my earliest Christmases involving no presents or decorations. At the time we were a family of five living in a travel trailer. Not a double wide or a single wide. A one bedroom travel trailer. And this was due to the many bad choices my father made. As I got older and started paying attention to the world around me, I decided I didn't want to be poor. Despite no emphasis from my parents about my education, I worked hard to make good grades. I got my education, worked hard (up to three jobs while in college), reinvested any disposable income, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's not a hard concept. It just takes the desire to better one's self. People can do or not do it, but the choice is theirs.

ETA: And, of course, I believe everyone knows my wife's story, which was far more dire than anything I experienced. Yet, she came here, learned the language, got a degree, went to work, got another degree, and so on. No she makes an incredible salary and she did it without expecting a handout from anyone.
My grandparents were dirt poor. My parents left Lamar County, Alabama, for the big city of Birmingham and worked their way through technical school: my dad to become a draftsman and my mom to become a registered nurse. I was the first in my immediate family to go to college and graduate. We are an example that the so-called cycle doesn't have to exist, and we are not alone.
 

MattinBama

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Ouch:

It's Time to Get Rid of Donald Trump

The U.S. elected a laughing stock to the presidency and has now made itself dependent on a joke of a man. The country is, as David Brooks wrote recently in the New York Times, dependent on a child. The Trump administration has no foreign policy because Trump has consistently promised American withdrawal while invoking America's strength. He has promised both no wars and more wars. He makes decisions according to his mood, with no strategic coherence or tactical logic. Moscow and Beijing are laughing at America. Elsewhere, people are worried.
In "Game of Thrones," the Mad King was murdered (and the child that later took his place was no better). In real life, an immature boy sits on the throne of the most important country in the world. He could, at any time, issue a catastrophic order that would immediately be carried out. That is why the parents cannot afford to take their eyes off him even for a second. They cannot succumb to exhaustion because he is so taxing. They ultimately have to send him to his room - and return power to the grownups.
 

CharminTide

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More on the Comey drama from several pages back.

Sources: Comey acted on Russian intelligence he knew was fake

Then-FBI Director James Comey knew that a critical piece of information relating to the investigation into Hillary Clinton's email was fake -- created by Russian intelligence -- but he feared that if it became public it would undermine the probe and the Justice Department itself, according to multiple officials with knowledge of the process.

As a result, Comey acted unilaterally last summer to publicly declare the investigation over -- without consulting then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch
-- while at the same time stating that Clinton had been "extremely careless" in her handling of classified information. His press conference caused a firestorm of controversy and drew criticism from both Democrats and Republicans.

Comey's actions based on what he knew was Russian disinformation offer a stark example of the way Russian interference impacted the decisions of the highest-level US officials during the 2016 campaign.
The Russian intelligence at issue purported to show that then-Attorney General Lynch had been compromised in the Clinton investigation. The intelligence described emails between then-Democratic National Committee Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz and a Clinton campaign operative suggesting that Lynch would make the FBI investigation of Clinton go away.

In classified sessions with members of Congress several months ago, Comey described those emails in the Russian claim and expressed his concern that this Russian information could "drop" and that would undermine the Clinton investigation and the Justice Department in general, according to one government official.

Still, Comey did not let on to lawmakers that there were doubts about the veracity of the intelligence, according to sources familiar with the briefings. It is unclear why Comey was not more forthcoming in a classified setting.

Sources close to Comey tell CNN he felt that it didn't matter if the information was accurate, because his big fear was that if the Russians released the information publicly, there would be no way for law enforcement and intelligence officials to discredit it without burning intelligence sources and methods.
 

Jon

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This article really hits home an idea that struck me recently. If we think what we saw out of Russia in 2016 was bad we are going to be spinning in 2020. No way in hell the EU countries allow the Russians to hijack our Republic again without their own counter efforts. I expect that our allies in Europe are ramping their hacking efforts of the US and the GOP as we sit here. The 2018 mid-terms will likely feature lots of ill gotten intel on both sides. Our voting population best learn some critical thinking skills quickly
 

TIDE-HSV

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This article really hits home an idea that struck me recently. If we think what we saw out of Russia in 2016 was bad we are going to be spinning in 2020. No way in hell the EU countries allow the Russians to hijack our Republic again without their own counter efforts. I expect that our allies in Europe are ramping their hacking efforts of the US and the GOP as we sit here. The 2018 mid-terms will likely feature lots of ill gotten intel on both sides. Our voting population best learn some critical thinking skills quickly
I just hope to see more NeverTrump representatives elected. I don't care what party label they carry...
 

Bodhisattva

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My grandparents were dirt poor. My parents left Lamar County, Alabama, for the big city of Birmingham and worked their way through technical school: my dad to become a draftsman and my mom to become a registered nurse. I was the first in my immediate family to go to college and graduate. We are an example that the so-called cycle doesn't have to exist, and we are not alone.
Your family has lived the American dream, and that's awesome. Your grandparents made things better for your parents, who made things better for you. That's the cycle that should be encouraged, not one of perpetual dehumanizing dependence. And nurses hold a special place in my heart - a combination of high skill and compassion. Kudos to your Mom. :)
 

TideEngineer08

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This article really hits home an idea that struck me recently. If we think what we saw out of Russia in 2016 was bad we are going to be spinning in 2020. No way in hell the EU countries allow the Russians to hijack our Republic again without their own counter efforts. I expect that our allies in Europe are ramping their hacking efforts of the US and the GOP as we sit here. The 2018 mid-terms will likely feature lots of ill gotten intel on both sides. Our voting population best learn some critical thinking skills quickly
Both parties should ban email. You can't get phished if you don't use email.

 

CharminTide

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Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin

Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports.

Ambassador Sergei Kislyak reported to his superiors in Moscow that Kushner, son-in-law and confidant to then-President-elect Trump, made the proposal during a meeting on Dec. 1 or 2 at Trump Tower, according to intercepts of Russian communications that were reviewed by U.S. officials.
Kislyak said Kushner suggested using Russian diplomatic facilities in the United States for the communications.

The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser.
 
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