The policy and politics of Trumpism

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chanson78

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I think it's more an issue of timing than of Dems not being on the same page about impeachment itself. It's a tactics vs. justice argument, not really an argument on the merits of impeachment. Hell, most of the country now thinks that he deserves impeachment.

Thing is, this Senate will never remove Trump from office, and so impeachment proceedings are the definition of political theater. I'm betting that Pelosi doesn't see it as just a symbolic move, but as a tactical move that you can only play once. And the only way this theater will have any practical meaning is if Dems wait to start the show until the audience is actually watching. IMO, Pelosi wants impeachment hearings on every evening news channel this time next year. She wants Trump to be asked about it during debates. She wants Trump to defend himself on primetime TV up until the election.

And since Pelosi knows that if she impeached tomorrow, the Senate would immediately absolve him, and the entire ordeal would be forgotten while refugees still get sexually abused in American cages, she's not interested in burning that card as a mere statement. Her struggle will be to keep her caucus together when a third of them start shouting louder and louder that waiting is a moral mistake. I happen to think that both sides make a strong case, but that Pelosi's strategy is the best one.
IANAL but there is also the argument if impeachment failed as a result of the Senate it would pave the way for him to get out of the myriad charges that are waiting to be filed once he is no longer president. I think many legal scholars believe that this isn't traditional double jeopardy, but with how many judges he has appointed and the way the USSC is leaning, I am also not sure how confident they would be that the courts wouldn't find standing for acquittal based upon a failed impeachment.

(Lawyer-type folks, how did I do on my terminology? A double check on accuracy would be awesome too, but I used the word standing and acquittal in a sentence for the first time ever, so I'm happy about that)
Further reading: Link here

They mention that double jeopardy wouldn't work because there are likely many criminal acts that he could be charged with as long as they haven't run the statute of limitations. But wouldn't the HoR want their case to be as ironclad as possible before beginning the impeachment process? To me that would require throwing as much into the impeachment articles as possible.
 

GrayTide

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I guess I am late to the party and somebody can offer some clarification. I believe Pelosi's strategy is well thought out, impeachment at this point is a waste of political capital, time, money, and certainly would result in a political black eye for the Democrats because the Senate will not convict him.

It has now been shown that the Democrat controlled House's oversight authority has not teeth. They issued a condemnation of Trump's racial comments, big deal, there are no consequences. Trump's sycophants defy Congressional subpoenas as fast as they can be delivered, where are the consequences?

The "squad", whom I support, are doing nothing but driving a wedge in the Democrat's chances to regain the WH. They are rookies in a "tough league" and have a lot to learn. Trump has, and will use the "squad" as the face of the Democrat party in 2020 painting it as a socialist, elite party that will tank the American economy, endanger all white Americans, and destroy religious freedom. They will be used as pawns by Trump and they need to understand that unless he is defeated nothing they have or will propose will ever see the light of day. Their progressive views need to be subjugated, until Trump is removed from the WH.
 

81usaf92

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I guess I am late to the party and somebody can offer some clarification. I believe Pelosi's strategy is well thought out, impeachment at this point is a waste of political capital, time, money, and certainly would result in a political black eye for the Democrats because the Senate will not convict him.

It has now been shown that the Democrat controlled House's oversight authority has not teeth. They issued a condemnation of Trump's racial comments, big deal, there are no consequences. Trump's sycophants defy Congressional subpoenas as fast as they can be delivered, where are the consequences?

The "squad", whom I support, are doing nothing but driving a wedge in the Democrat's chances to regain the WH. They are rookies in a "tough league" and have a lot to learn. Trump has, and will use the "squad" as the face of the Democrat party in 2020 painting it as a socialist, elite party that will tank the American economy, endanger all white Americans, and destroy religious freedom. They will be used as pawns by Trump and they need to understand that unless he is defeated nothing they have or will propose will ever see the light of day. Their progressive views need to be subjugated, until Trump is removed from the WH.
100% correct. I think Pelosi knows that she must pick her battles wisely in order to end the Neo Reich before it destroys too many of our institutions.

I think the problem is that Democrats are seeing what the Republicans saw in 2010-2012, and that is a radical sect forming within their ranks that has finally achieved congressional power. 2012 should’ve been a pretty competitive election with the backlash over the stimulus and ACA, but the tea party highjacked congress and undermined everything Boenher tried to do to the point of holding military pay hostage. Pelosi probably doesn’t have it near as bad as Boehner, but she has a president that won’t stop pointing at that part of the Democratic Party to rally his troops.
 

92tide

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i believe folks are projecting a lot of power onto these 4 freshwomen that isn't there and worrying too much. i'm glad they are calling out the gop on their racism and misogyny and standing up to this crap. it needs to be fought back against constantly.
 

TIDE-HSV

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IANAL but there is also the argument if impeachment failed as a result of the Senate it would pave the way for him to get out of the myriad charges that are waiting to be filed once he is no longer president. I think many legal scholars believe that this isn't traditional double jeopardy, but with how many judges he has appointed and the way the USSC is leaning, I am also not sure how confident they would be that the courts wouldn't find standing for acquittal based upon a failed impeachment.

(Lawyer-type folks, how did I do on my terminology? A double check on accuracy would be awesome too, but I used the word standing and acquittal in a sentence for the first time ever, so I'm happy about that)
Further reading: Link here

They mention that double jeopardy wouldn't work because there are likely many criminal acts that he could be charged with as long as they haven't run the statute of limitations. But wouldn't the HoR want their case to be as ironclad as possible before beginning the impeachment process? To me that would require throwing as much into the impeachment articles as possible.
That article is so confused, I don't know what he's trying to say. He seems to say, as speculation, that Pelosi is afraid that Trump couldn't be tried for anything brought up as grounds for impeachment if the senate acquitted him. I've not heard anything which she's said which would support his remarks. The Supreme Court last month in the Gamble case reaffirmed that state and federal charges were not double jeopardy. Impeachment is yet another, separate, proceeding. It carries no criminal penalty at all, just removal from office. If the SCOTUS doesn't think separate prosecutions for the same acts on the state and federal levels are double jeopardy, how could they hold that an impeachment proceeding is double jeopardy. I think this author is just looking for something to get wildly indignant about...
 

bamacpa

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I posted this on Facebook three years ago, the day after a party debate. I still feel this way, just more tired. I apologize for the length, I get wordy when I'm righteously indignant.

Father and son. It's a theme that seems to regularly find me, a prism I use to try and understand the world around me. Maybe this theme comes to me because my dad died when I was 15, but regardless of why it comes, father and son feels like the right framework to express my thoughts on American politics.
My younger son will turn 18 just before the election, and he's excited about casting his first presidential ballot. He's smart and thoughtful, and has a pretty good sense of when someone is lying to him. My dad served 24 years in the military, seeing the world at a time when America was respected, and American servicemen were welcomed virtually everywhere.
I'm bitterly disappointed that my son's first presidential vote will be cast in an election that ends with Clinton or Trump in the White House. I'm enraged and discouraged that the current American political machine has spit out two candidates that I find morally reprehensible in their personal lives and unfit for professional leadership. One side tells me they want to make America great again, yet can't make their own speech without stealing words.The other side tells me to rely on their experience - an experience chock full of whoremongering, deceit and dereliction of duty. I heap scorn and loathing on the Republicans and Democrats and the operatives and strategists who support your dumb&&&ery. You leave me heartbroken for my son and the choices you provide him. You leave me with tears as I confront the awful realization that I'm glad my dad is dead and not here to see your political machinery dishonor his service by your clumsy, filthy power grabs.
I used to find it hard to comprehend the Old Testament passages about grief and anger leaving Job to tear his own clothes and sit in a pile of ashes. I couldn't fathom emotions driving you to tear your own clothes. Well, I'm starting to get it. If you hear news reports of an old naked guy sitting out in his yard on a pile of ashes, you can tell your friends, "I know him".
 

NationalTitles18

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If only Trump had taken his own advice when he hated America under Obama he wouldn't be president and that alone would help make America great again.

This attitude of fall in line and love dear leader or leave is about as unAmerican as it can get.

Or how about this: Even if I hate America I have every right to be here (I love America - hating Trump proves that!), but if I get elected to Congress and I'm working for what I believe is right for her then there's a good chance that I don't hate America and instead love her and that those saying to leave don't have the intellect or the integrity to make a valid counterargument and this sort of tripe is all their little brains can come up with.
 

selmaborntidefan

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When did American politics hit the tipping point?

Before or after the current occupant of the WH was elected?

Or have we reached the tipping point?

IMHO, this is where the answer lies for those wondering what has happened.

While I understand your question (the top one), I think it's the wrong question.

To use analogy, I think that question works the same way that someone evaluating his or her divorce wants to know, which is, "What is the one thing that could have been done differently to change the outcome?"

That question ASSUMES there is a singular point, and I don't think reality works that way.

I can give a list of problems that both political parties caused that brought us to where we are now, but I would hasten to add that at least SOME of them (e.g. moving delegate selection for nominees from state conventions to primary or caucus voting) were very good intentions that had unforeseen consequences. To give another example, the modern public financing was the result of Watergate - and the result has been candidates winning nominations primarily on the basis of their abilities to raise money (and thus poll numbers), which has nothing at all to do with governing.


The thing I never cease to point out, though, is you have to remember that Trump is an EFFECT of all those things that happened before, not a cause. In all seriousness, part of the reason so many folks pay so little attention to his marathon of lies is because they cannot name a single politician who didn't lie to them about something big - from U2 spy planes to keeping your own doctor. The public as a whole has an earned cynicism about elected officials and has learned to take any promise from a politician about as seriously as a guy who wants to score with a girl telling her he loves her and all that other seduction nonsense.

I'm obviously not saying this makes Trump's incredible non-stop cycle of lies okay - it doesn't. But you now have a public deadened to such things. The lie will only matter to folks when they observe up close and personal where it affects them.


I came up with a list of about 25 things last night that during my lifetime were big contributing factors - but I'd be provincial and self-centered to limit myself to those factors. Vietnam and Watergate were mammoth causes mostly because TV was in the picture. McKinley lied, too, but he didn't have to worry about CNN putting up video of him saying one thing and then the opposite, either.


Ultimately, it comes down to human nature and our self-centered ways.
 

81usaf92

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since a lot of Trumpers seem to be braving this thread again I thought I'd give them this reminder from Buzzfeed of all the stuff they should be boycotting still

https://www.thedailybeast.com/all-the-things-you-can-no-longer-buy-if-youre-a-true-maga-trump-fan

enjoy your RC Cola or storebrand crap while I drink a large Coke
Lol. If I was ever a Trumper (Never have and Never will be) then I wouldn't be for long because I couldn't live life without Oreos... atleast for a dumb reason as this.

OREOS

[COLOR=rgba(2, 20, 31, 0.85)]No brand is safe in MAGA Country. And two years ago, even milk’s favorite cookie was in the line of fire. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(2, 20, 31, 0.85)]Trump declared that he would not be “eating any more Oreos” after Mondelez International, the parent of Nabisco, which produces Oreos, announced it would move some of its Chicago operations to Mexico. Trump claimed the move would cost 2,000 American jobs; the actual number was closer 600. Accuracy aside, the president’s supporters obliged, even joining in on an impassioned chant of “no more Oreos” at the president’s behest during a rally in Las Vegas, Nevada.[/COLOR]​
 

NationalTitles18

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https://www.christianitytoday.com/c...Ir5eLIz088RM2LhywsWp5Qhk6DgOntgC50dsL_UQRENIE

[FONT=&quot]As for me, I wonder if we have too many court prophets in an era when wilderness prophets are needed. I also wonder if our court prophets are willing to call out sin when they see it. Whether you view Trump as a David or an Antipas, whether you serve at the court of the resplendent king or stand over against the court from the wilderness, one thing Nathan and John the Baptist held in common was that both were willing to condemn unrighteousness in their rulers—even if it cost them everything.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The racial inflection of our political drama adds deeper significance to the moment. White Christians have a long and lamentable history of silence (or worse) when people of color are under attack. On the one hand, I sense today an authentic desire among white Christians to build bridges of relationship and reconciliation with their friends and neighbors of other ethnicities.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On the other hand, I sense a profound frustration among non- white Christian friends that their white brethren keep silent as the president aims ugly and demeaning statements at people of color. These friends don’t like what the silence of the white church is saying, and neither do we.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If white Christians wish to stand on the bridge with brothers and sisters of other colors and backgrounds, they need to stand with them first in the foxhole. We should all stand so close that attacks on “them” are attacks on “us,” until there is no longer a distinction between “them” and “us” remaining. If we abandon our sister in the foxhole, we cannot expect her to attend our potluck.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So let us not be silent. We are not captive to political party. We are accountable to a higher authority. We expect better of our leaders, and we stand in the foxholes with our brothers and sisters when they are taking fire. We hope court prophets and wilderness prophets alike, and Christians of all political persuasions, will speak the truth and stand with those who suffer unjustly.[/FONT]
 

GrayTide

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since a lot of Trumpers seem to be braving this thread again I thought I'd give them this reminder from Buzzfeed of all the stuff they should be boycotting still

https://www.thedailybeast.com/all-the-things-you-can-no-longer-buy-if-youre-a-true-maga-trump-fan

enjoy your RC Cola or storebrand crap while I drink a large Coke
There are a few coming back around, but I suspect they have no intention of boycotting anything they like, inspite of what the idiot in the WH might say.
 

selmaborntidefan

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it’s almost like he ran a fake punt on fourth down and 11 to go with less than two minutes left in the sec championship game
But this was even more brain dead than that was. I know that disappoints your Jawja hating self, but it really was.

When Kirby channeled his inner Trump, the score was already tied. Trump, by contrast, was in place and - again by contrast - had actually managed to do 3-4 things in a row without acting like a total douche.


All he had to do was let the young "squad" fire off their rants and cause an intra-party squabble, let Biden's nonexistent racism get drawn out to bleed him slowly to death, let them nominate someone advocating flat out socialism and reparations......and cruise to a second term. (It's far easier to win as an incumbent with peace and a booming economy than folks want to admit).
 
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selmaborntidefan

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There are a few coming back around, but I suspect they have no intention of boycotting anything they like, inspite of what the idiot in the WH might say.
Let's be honest: this is not 1963 Birmingham and 99% of boycotts are stupid, no matter who is doing them.

Every gay person mad at Chick-fil-A can boycott them, and it won't hurt them in the least (they're now the #3 franchise in the USA after all the publicity).
Every Baptist mad at Disney can boycott them, and it won't hurt them, either.
Nike with Kap, the NFL, a restaurant because the owner has a MAGA hat.........the dynamics are all different (and idiots don't seem to understand this).
 

selmaborntidefan

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tattooguy21

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Thing is, this Senate will never remove Trump from office, and so impeachment proceedings are the definition of political theater. I'm betting that Pelosi doesn't see it as just a symbolic move, but as a tactical move that you can only play once. And the only way this theater will have any practical meaning is if Dems wait to start the show until the audience is actually watching. IMO, Pelosi wants impeachment hearings on every evening news channel this time next year. She wants Trump to be asked about it during debates. She wants Trump to defend himself on primetime TV up until the election.
Agreed 100%. I've told the wife I fully expect in August-Sep that a vote for impeachment will make it so that all the final debates, commercials, news cycles are about a president undergoing impeachment hearings is running for president.

Not that I think it'll away any votes. The left and right have already decided who they'll vote for at that point. It's just a matter of those centrist and if they are that discerning, I don't think conveniently timed impeachment hearings are the straw that broke the voters back to shift then left or right.

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tattooguy21

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i believe folks are projecting a lot of power onto these 4 freshwomen that isn't there and worrying too much. i'm glad they are calling out the gop on their racism and misogyny and standing up to this crap. it needs to be fought back against constantly.
I believe the one world view regarding open borders and social programs on tap they espouse are damaging the democratic party far more than helping it.

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