CIA: Russia influenced election to help Trump win

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CharminTide

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So explain your obsession with this topic. Please.
I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've already explained why in this thread. And in others. Try re-reading it without the presumption that I'm "butthurt" about the election result.

Your reading of recent history is a bit creative. Did you call Trump "Putin's puppet" before the election?
Many of us made this charge long before the election. I'm surprised you don't recall.
 

Tide1986

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I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've already explained why in this thread. And in others. Try re-reading it without the presumption that I'm "butthurt" about the election result.


Many of us made this charge long before the election. I'm surprised you don't recall.
Explain the evidence indicating that Trump is Putin's puppet.

And hasn't Obama been Putin's prostitute?
 

CharminTide

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The "Putin's puppet" line is quite hypocritical given the left's support of the Obama/Hillary Russia reset, which was intended to create friendlier relations.
Can you quote where anyone in this discussion voiced support for said reset? Otherwise you're simply generalizing. For the record, I don't think Obama has been nearly tough enough on Russia.

I'm curious: do you support the installation of so many friendly and financial ties to Moscow within Trump's inner circle?
 

Tide1986

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Can you quote where anyone in this discussion voiced support for said reset? Otherwise you're simply generalizing. For the record, I don't think Obama has been nearly tough enough on Russia.

I'm curious: do you support the installation of so many friendly and financial ties to Moscow within Trump's inner circle?
If one believes we should be on agreeable, noncombative terms with Russia, then it does make sense for people who have established relations with Russia to be in government. It means we'll have more of a chance to collarborate with Russia. On the other hand, the number of generals in government could be used to deal with Russia if collaborative relations aren't forthcoming.

Methinks you and others weren't nearly as critical of The One with respect to Russia.
 

CharminTide

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If one believes we should be on agreeable, noncombative terms with Russia, then it does make sense for people who have established relations with Russia to be in government. It means we'll have more of a chance to collarborate with Russia. On the other hand, the number of generals in government could be used to deal with Russia if collaborative relations aren't forthcoming.
I notice you didn't answer the question.
 

selmaborntidefan

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So just to clarify....NOW it's the LEFT-WING saying:

1) It's a conspiracy
2) Computers matter
3) Election/voter fraud is a real thing
4) We're not accepting the results of the election


Anyone who ever doubted Trump is more leftist than right can simply look at the behaviors being exhibited.


On a more serious (long-term) note, a conservative friend of mine made what I think to be an astute prediction that I'll paraphrase here:

The moment the Democrats figure out the way to get what you want from Trump is to simply flatter the idiot, the Republicans are in huge trouble.
 

Tide1986

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I notice you didn't answer the question.
This question?

do you support the installation of so many friendly and financial ties to Moscow within Trump's inner circle?
I think I answered that one.

Regarding the question that led off your comment, my reference was of course general. It seemed kind of obvious to me since I named no specific individual. Anyone else is free to set the record straight on how he felt/feels with respect to the Obama/Hillary Russian reset then and now.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I could add a fifth one - after 40 years of telling us Russia is not a threat (going back to Carter saying the magical words "inordinate fear of Communism")....NOW all of a sudden Russia is a threat??????

Paul Begala, the infamous Clinton toady, was at least man enough on his Twitter the other day to admit he was wrong for blasting Romney four years ago for saying this very thing. (Of course, he can safely do this now since there's not an election anywhere close on the horizon).


Democrat: Russia is a severe threat
Republican: Very well, let's increase military spending to cope with this severe threat.
Democrat: NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

===============


On a more serious note....I suspect Romney (who may be tone deaf politically but is by no means a stupid man) wants nothing to do with being part of a humiliated Trump administration.
 

Tidewater

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If one believes we should be on agreeable, noncombative terms with Russia, then it does make sense for people who have established relations with Russia to be in government. It means we'll have more of a chance to collarborate with Russia. On the other hand, the number of generals in government could be used to deal with Russia if collaborative relations aren't forthcoming.

Methinks you and others weren't nearly as critical of The One with respect to Russia.
I have no problem cooperating with Russia on things of mutual interest. For example, just now, we cannot get American astronauts to and from the international space station without Russian assistance. We also have a common interest in suppressing international terrorism (although Syria has shown that this gets complicated in reality on the ground).
The way to get the Russians to cooperate, however, is not to go hat in hand (and a "reset" button in the other hand), telling Russia we are sorry we have been uncooperative and mean and asking if we can start again. That conveys weakness and to a Russian, weakness is like a red flag to a bull. Weakness by the US makes Russia more aggressive.
The way to get Russians to cooperate is to show them they have to cooperate or, at least, it is in Russia's interest to cooperate with the US.
Whether Democrats want to admit it or not, Obama, around the world, looks like a weakling. Bad people take advantage of that.
 

tidegrandpa

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I haven't read the 100+ posts in this thread. So please forgive me if I'm plowing old ground...

I'm confused.

I'm hearing that the Russians hacked US computers with the intent of influencing the recent presidential election against Clinton and in favor of Trump.

So my question is: Unless they hacked a whole lot of voting machines, the Russians didn't alter the vote count to be different from what the ballots were actually cast. At least, nobody's said it might have been materially so.

So if they didn't alter the actual intent of the voters, what's the problem?

Apparently, they hacked enough of the DNC's and Clinton's campaign's computers that they extracted a lot of compromising information. Problem is, I haven't heard a whisper of anything from those computers being mis-represented -- and given the hue and cry on the issue, it strains credulity beyond breaking to think the Clinton supporters would perceive misrepresentations of the truth on those computers, yet remain silent.

So if the Russians actually hacked anything, they neither altered the accurate count of votes nor mis-represented the truth. So again, what's the problem?

Which in turn begs the question of how they might have influenced the election -- assuming they did at all. The complainers would have us believe that the Russians influenced the election with -- of all abominations -- the truth. Really? That's all you got?

If the Russians successfully hacked Clinton's and the DNC's computers, it's re-inforcement of the consequences of what the GOP wailed for months about -- the lack of security practiced by the Clinton camp, for reasons that are yet unknown. Though given their longstanding haphazard relationship with the truth, it's pretty easy to infer.

Here's my concern: Its not so much what the Russians disseminated...it's that they got the information at all. I'm not naive enough to think they didn't at least try to hack the GOP. Assuming they tried, did they succeed? If not, that's great. But if so, why did they choose to leak only that information damaging to Clinton?

Suppose the complainers are right, and the Russians did in fact out Clinton, with facts resident on her organization's own computers. Assuming the facts were accurately disseminated to the public (and again, I haven't heard a whisper that they weren't), it doesn't obviate the results of the election. Logic that seems lost on her supporters.

It begs the question of why they'd do that. Logic that seems lost on lots of people.
 

CharminTide

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I'm confused.
1) Although there are some irregularities under investigation, there is no evidence that any voting machines were hacked or any votes changed.
2) All 17 intelligence agencies have stated on the record that Russia was behind the DNC email hacks. Trump still refuses to believe it.
3) The hacking campaign was originally presented as Russia leaking emails and setting up propaganda news outlets to merely disrupt the election. It was believed that these fake news sites (some were set up by Russian assets, others by random people looking to profit off Facebook clicks) were overwhelmingly aimed at the right not because of some anti-Clinton agenda, but because the right fell for the narrative-fitting lies more readily.
4) The new twist comes from the CIA: that Russia hacked both the DNC and RNC, and chose only to release the DNC emails.
5) The implication of this is that they sought not just to discredit the election, but to favor one candidate over another.
6) In the context of Trump questioning the continued existence of NATO, befriending Putin and other authoritarian leaders worldwide, appointing cabinet members with strong ties to Russia, and his own company apparently having incredibly deep financial interests in Moscow, this charge is both believable and concerning. Certainly worthy of an investigation. It is perhaps mere coincidence that Trump just canceled his press conference that was to outline the resolution of his innumerable business conflicts.

tl;dr the term "hack" is confusing. There is no evidence that voting machines were hacked. But intelligence agencies have said time and time again that Russia was trying to exert influence on the election through a powerful misinformation campaign. The CIA now claims that this was a targeted propaganda campaign aimed at helping Trump reach the White House. Many have equated these actions to espionage and cyberattacks aimed at our election process by a foreign adversary, and this where the outrage lies. But we won't know anything official until a public investigation occurs.

The (suddenly bipartisan) outrage intensified as Trump continued to paint U.S. intelligence as incompetent and repeatedly rejected their conclusions (see #2). Fortunately, after dodging the topic for several days, a number of prominent GOP voices now support a (semi-public) investigation into Russia's role in our election(s). So the classified information that people in this thread have been asking for might actually see light. This is a good thing.
 

NationalTitles18

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2) All 17 intelligence agencies have stated on the record that Russia was behind the DNC email hacks.
You say this as if all 17 independently came to the same conclusion. There is no evidence of that. Just a statement saying the overall intelligence community is confident is that assertion. While that is impressive in itself, it did come from Obama's DoHS (in a joint statement with Obama's DNI).

If the Russians tried to influence the election they did a poor job based on hits vs votes. The evidence simply does not support any significant change associated with attempted influence.
 

CharminTide

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You say this as if all 17 independently came to the same conclusion. There is no evidence of that.
Not sure why you think this is significant, but okay. In the end, 17 agencies issued a unanimous statement.

If the Russians tried to influence the election they did a poor job based on hits vs votes. The evidence simply does not support any significant change associated with attempted influence.
What evidence are you citing? The whole point of investigating this is see what Russia attempted, how systems or people were compromised, what effect it had, and what effect it may still have.
 
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