Minnesota Players Boycotting All Football Activities After 10 Players Suspended...

B1GTide

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Based on the information offered in this thread, it seems pretty clear that the school had no choice here. If they refused to suspend the players, they probably find themselves in the same boat that Baylor does right now.

We will never know if the girl was really assaulted or not, but it seems that schools have no choice these days. I am not sure if that is good or bad, but it is very wrong that the names of these young men is being thrown around like this. They are going to be considered rapists by a huge segment of our society now.

IMO, if Title IX requires this sort of action, it should protect the names of everyone involved.
 

russtang

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Reading the account though, there is no question at all that Minnesota was fully justified in taking action against these individuals. Even if you give them every benefit of the doubt, you are still left with compelling evidence that several of them had sex with the same inebriated woman. This included pictures, video, and encouraging others to participate. What college would condone that sort of behavior, with a recruit present no less, from their student athletes?

I've said before that I don't care about what goes on with consenting adults, but A: I'm not even sure the recruit was an adult, and B: In the very least the woman's ability to fully consent was impaired. C: Pretty much everyone on the planet knows the proper response after having sex with a drunk woman doesn't include inviting your friends over to have sex with her to.

I do understand why the team took a stand though. They clearly were... no pun intended, in this together.
Yeah the players are evidently unaware of the EOAA report.

After reading the police report and then the just half of EOAA report, it's obvious the police did practically no investigating other than taking statements.
The players are taking a stand based on "they aren't pressing charges so they are cleared".
 
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Go Bama

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This report tells you all you need to know.
I agree. This could have been consensual at first but turned into a horrible abuse. These guys are guilty and the university has no choice but to expel the students.

If the team just reads the first ten pages, I think they'll understand. The report is extremely graphic.

Kudos to UM for doing the right thing.
 

cuda.1973

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They're only undergrad students. We can't expect them to understand such subtleties as "just because we are declining to prosecute does not mean that you are innocent", "we have a code of conduct" and "actions that are, or could be, detrimental to the University and its image, can result in disciplinary actions" can we?

No.............of course not! That is why they are still undergrads.


Ok, on a different note.........a buddy, who was born and raised in Uganda, did his BS at UK. (Where he despised Joe B. Hall more than The Wimp hated Gene Bartow and Joe B. combined.)

He then went to Arizona, to work on his Master's.

Then..............despite everyone telling him "NO!" (including a guy who grew up in South Dakota), that is was too dang cold up there, he did his Doctorate at Minne ha-ha.

All he did was gripe about how cold it was, and had to plug in his car oil heater, all the time.

We warned him.

All of which means in the not-too-distant past that 3 of the 4 teams, in the Final Four one year, granted him a diploma. Just to point this back to athletics..................

I forget who won. Or who the 4th team was.
 

bamabelle1991

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Wow. Just read all of that. Honestly, I can't believe the police didn't at least let a grand jury here all the evidence and decide whether or not a sexual assault happened. Sounds like the girl may have been a little frisky at first, but then started saying NO. I can't believe there was not ONE person in that apartment that had the guts to tell the rest of them to STOP. Absolutely horrible. Most of the accused admitted to the sexual contact, too.
 
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IMALOYAL1

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I think the young girl especially felt she would have done things differently. Hormones drive teens crazy. Alcohol gives them an excuse to act on the overwhelming hormone imbalance.

It's why these thing are sometimes swept under the rug.When attitudes change toward the "victim" that the shame sets in and blame must be place on another, who usually is much to blame. Especially if it becomes widely known and much more embarrassing to the girl than the dumb jocks.

Fathers are usually the last to believe their little girl would do anything like this.

TV makes stars out of some of the most promiscuous. A sex tape can take a girl to stardom or the depth of depression. Sex is pushed at us 24/7.

Behavior is a choice, and it seems this stems from some bad choices by each with some more culpable than others.

It is the right of the University to determine if the actions are in line with their moral obligation to prevent this sort of behavior.
It's not their job to determine if the students violated the Law, just the code of conduct the University wants it's students to adhere to.

I'm sure many coaches would go along with a team vote to determine any disciplinary actions.
 
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Ole Man Dan

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Doesn't mean that he shouldn't have sued. I would spend a small fortune on this if it happened to my son. I would also make it very public, and very ugly.

This is the kind of thing that can follow a kid around for the rest of his life.
and if the guy is guilty, or has guilty knowledge, he should just walk. Not no, but NO.

I don't like that she reported the Rapes late... but in today's climate, schools have bought into the if she sez no... It's No, even if she sez it long after the fact. I have a problem with the timeline... but this is how Universities are starting to look at reports of Rape.

I have a bigger problem with students making decisions. like, We aren't going to play if you don't do as we say. Thats crap in my book. A strong Coach would have had a team meeting and explained that they do indeed have the right to protest, but the University has the right to not have them as representatives. TURN IN YOUR UNIFORM IF YOU WILL NOT PLAY.
I doubt the University backing that threat, but they should.

Kids must learn that actions have consequences.
 
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rgw

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This isn't slavery. Nobody is making them play but that doesn't mean they're going to have their scholarship next semester or the following Fall. What you're asking for is compelling somebody to do something against their will. That is flat out wrong and no world you should want to live in...it's all fun and games when you're the one deciding but that mindset can come around and bite you in the behind one day.

You're just expressing distaste because that the players have flipped the script and actually exerted power in the dynamic. The school can't cut all their scholarships. It would end their football program. So the players have made a very effective protest and good on them. Maybe don't take extrajudicial punishment on individuals the local prosecutor deemed not enough to charge next time...
 

drwho

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Minnesota enacted an "affirmative consent policy" over the last year. This has likely been the weapon the school has used to punish these players in the name of PR.


Again, this is about making sure mommy and daddy of future student know 'Soda is looking after their little princess when she decides to do some kinky crap then regrets it.
Or, maybe they are trying to protect a young woman who was sexually assaulted.

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drwho

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That is absolutely wrong. I know Mommy and Daddy like to think their little precious angel is as pure as the driven snow and is sitting in her dorm room on Thursday nights studying her Sunday School lesson. But unfortunately that simply isn't the case. I lived in an athletic dorm for two years and I can't even begin to count the number of times these sweet precious angels would sneak into the dorms and look to "lay hands" on anyone they could.
Actually, it is the case sometimes. Not all coeds are angels, but they're not all whores, either.

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rgw

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Or, maybe they are trying to protect a young woman who was sexually assaulted.

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Like I've said earlier, this investigation was handled on the up and up...no shady business where the university protected the players. The prosecutor declined to prosecute so there was clearly a murky picture on what happened. This action by the university is about PR. Pure and simple. The players are hitting them where it hurts by screwing them out of money.
 

rgw

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I want to note I'm no MRA, there is just something unsettling about universities punishing students for criminal actions that law enforcement declined to prosecute. How would you feel to be terminated over claims that led an arrest where you were ultimately not even charged? And for many of these young men this negative action against them will likely preclude them from scholarship opportunities at other schools. For something that wasn't even charged in what appears to be professional job done by law enforcement and district attorney's office?

That feels wrong. I know men have gotten away with it in the past but extrajudicial kangaroo courts where the deck is stacked against the accused is not the kind of classical liberal democracy I thought we lived in...

And for this to be done by a publicly funded institution just furthers the unsettled feeling I have about how this played out within the university. If BYU wants to argue they have a higher standard on personal conduct? Fine. Public funded universities should just be expelling convicted sex offenders while a student and prevent the entry of registered ex-con sex offenders (at least on-campus enrollment but I'm sure a case can be argued for denying all types of class participation). It shouldn't be their role to act as a secondary punishment system to criminal allegations. They should only respond to what the criminal justice decides on those issues.


And that is in a nutshell why I conclude that this is more about PR than any high-minded goal of protecting women. It is really about seeming tough on sexual assault in a extrajudicial fashion so future student's mom and dad lets their daughter enroll at Minnesota. The way that actually promotes justice while being tough on sexual assault is to behave EXACTLY like they did in the investigative process and not shield their athletes from questioning like Florida State, Notre Dame, or Baylor. The chips fell where they may and didn't come out fire and brimstone, but that is justice. This decision by Minnesota is crap...it isn't justice...and I frankly support the players wholeheartedly.
 
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Go Bama

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I want to note I'm no MRA, there is just something unsettling about universities punishing students for criminal actions that law enforcement declined to prosecute. How would you feel to be terminated over claims that led an arrest where you were ultimately not even charged? And for many of these young men this negative action against them will likely preclude them from scholarship opportunities at other schools. For something that wasn't even charged in what appears to be professional job done by law enforcement and district attorney's office?

That feels wrong. I know men have gotten away with it in the past but extrajudicial kangaroo courts where the deck is stacked against the accused is not the kind of classical liberal democracy I thought we lived in...

And for this to be done by a publicly funded institution just furthers the unsettled feeling I have about how this played out within the university. If BYU wants to argue they have a higher standard on personal conduct? Fine. Universities should just be expelling convicted sex offenders while a student and preventing the entry of registered ex-con sex offenders (at least on-campus enrollment).
Did you read the report? The girl was abused. There's no way I would want those young men representing my university. What the police did has nothing to do with it.

I suspect the bigger problem for the school would exist if the school did not expel the offenders. A lot of parents would pull their kids out of school. I'm sure that I would.
 

rgw

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The police and DA have a lot to do with it because they're the ones that should be deciding to prosecute them on the behalf of the people. As far as I'm concerned - without any evidence that this investigation was corrupted by the DA, law enforcement, or university - these people are innocent and should still be enrolled, scholarship students at Minnesota.

It isn't a public university's job to play court.
 

Special K

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The police and DA have a lot to do with it because they're the ones that should be deciding to prosecute them on the behalf of the people. As far as I'm concerned - without any evidence that this investigation was corrupted by the DA, law enforcement, or university - these people are innocent and should still be enrolled, scholarship students at Minnesota.

It isn't a public university's job to play court.
Sorry, but you are grossly underestimating and/or completely ignoring the impact of Title IX requirements. Fail to follow those and your federal funding can go bye-bye and you can get hammered in civil court. It's not all about whether the acts rise to the level of criminal activity or not. The burden of proof under Title IX investigations is much lower as has been established in this thread. Read the report, the school really had no choice from what I see. It's not about PR, it's about $$$$$$.

Think of it this way. If you sexually harass someone at your workplace - not criminal sexual assault, just harassment - and your employer ignores it when reported, what is probably going to happen? Nobody's getting convicted or going to jail, but if the accuser sues then the company is probably paying a settlement, you're likely getting fired, and so are the people who ignored it. What do you expect the school to do when they are legally bound to investigate and respond per Title IX?

Just to put it in perspective, here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Title IX:

In addition to its use within formal complaints submitted to the Department of Education, Title IX has been utilized in civil litigation. In 2006, a federal court found that there was sufficient evidence that the University of Colorado acted with "deliberate indifference" toward students Lisa Simpson and Anne Gilmore, who were sexually assaulted by student football players. The university settled the case, promising to change its policies and pay $2.5 million in damages.[SUP][67][/SUP] In 2008, Arizona State University was the subject of a lawsuit that alleged violations of rights guaranteed by Title IX: the university expelled a football player for multiple instances of severe sexual harassment, but readmitted him; he went on to rape a fellow student in her dorm room. Despite its claim that it bore no responsibility, the school settled the lawsuit, agreeing to revise and improve its official response to sexual misconduct and to pay the plaintiff $850,000 in damages and fees.
 

NationalTitles18

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Ultimately, I cannot know what happened during this incident because I was not there. I can't speak to the consent of any involved or their guilt or innocence.

The issue attempting to be brought to the fore by the players seems to be due process - or the lack thereof - on college campuses. I have not read the 80 page report but did read the police report. I cannot say if due process was afforded the accused in this case, but in other similar cases due process procedures have been questionable at best.

https://www.thefire.org/university-...-perceived-lack-of-due-process-for-teammates/

A law enforcement agency’s decision not to bring charges against a student is not binding on an institution of higher education. But the public should ask questions of institutions that contradict law enforcement conclusions by imposing sanctions on students. Law enforcement officials undoubtedly have superior tools to investigate allegations of criminal activity. For example, colleges don’t have subpoena power, so they cannot compel potential witnesses to cooperate with investigations or put them under oath if they are willing to testify. In this instance, prosecutors may have decided not to indict the accused players because they did not believe they could have demonstrated probable cause to justify the indictments. If this is so, it is hard to see how a school could meet the preponderance of the evidence standard, which is even higher.
The Minnesota football players are far from alone in arguing that they were disciplined for alleged sexual misconduct in a campus judiciary without due process. Scores of lawsuits filed since 2011 by students around the country have alleged the same. Because of the stigma associated with allegations of sexual misconduct, however, plaintiffs typically hope their cases are resolved quickly and quietly to avoid compounding the reputational harms associated with being accused of sexual assault. While this is understandable, it also means that the public often doesn’t see the human consequences of denying students core due process protections.
Of course, student athletes—like all students—must receive fair treatment when allegations against them are being evaluated by a college or university. Students should neither be treated with favoritism, nor be disfavored, because of their status as student athletes.
If FIRE has learned one thing in our years of analyzing campus sexual assault cases, it’s that when it comes to institutional bias, the winds don’t blow in only one direction. One campus administration might decide that protecting a star athlete is necessary to protect its reputation or financial interests. Another school may seek to make an example of a star athlete, regardless of the facts of the specific case, in an attempt to send a message to other students or the general public. Because colleges investigate their own students, they may face serious conflicts of interest, inviting them to address allegations guided by a desired outcome instead of an impartial review of the evidence. Incorporating meaningful due process protections would go a long way toward ensuring that all cases are handled with the impartiality that complainants and accused students deserve, both at the University of Minnesota and across the country.
Some information on due process on the public school campus.

https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...mpus-full-text/#__RefHeading__2502_2127946742

Students facing possible suspension or expulsion from public colleges and universities are entitled to due process protections because their liberty and property are at stake. But exactly what process is due?At the absolute minimum, students in campus disciplinary cases are entitled to have (1) notice of the charges against them, (2) an explanation of the evidence against them, and (3) an opportunity to tell their side of the story.
The Supreme Court established these minimal requirements in Goss v. Lopez (1975), in which nine suspended Ohio high school students sued their school, claiming that they had been denied due process. The Court, weighing the costs and benefits to the school and to the students, held that although the most severe suspensions were only ten days long, the students had constitutional rights protected by the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Goss Court ruled that in student disciplinary cases involving short suspensions, an accused student must “be given oral or written notice of the charges against him and, if he denies them, an explanation of the evidence the authorities have and an opportunity to present his side of the story.” The Court held that, at the very least, administrators must engage in an “informal give-and-take” with a student before imposing a penalty. To the Court, requiring this bare minimum of due process—notice and an “informal hearing” that permits a student to “give his version of the events”—is necessary because it “will provide a meaningful hedge against erroneous action.”
ISN’T GOSS A HIGH SCHOOL CASE?
It is. As a college student, you should generally consult college cases to understand the full scope of your rights. But high school cases are very useful to you, too, because as a college student, you have at least the same rights that high school students possess. Courts have generally found that college students are entitled to more due process protections than students in the lower grades because college students are adults in the eyes of the law. Further, because there are more high school than college students, high school jurisprudence may be better developed on the point at issue in your case. In other words, high school legal precedents establish a floor, not a ceiling, to the rights accorded to you as a college student.
Importantly, the Court specifically stated that in more difficult cases, administrators may permit the participation or advice of counsel, hold hearings, or allow cross-examination. To a certain extent, Goss left the decision of whether to offer these greater protections to the “discretion” of administrators. But the Court also stated that due process “may require more formal procedures” in more serious cases.
Goss remains the Supreme Court’s clearest statement on student due process rights. So in the four decades following Goss, the lower federal courts and various state courts have worked on a case-by-case basis to determine how much process is due in various situations. While results have varied, federal and state courts have agreed that the amount of due process required in campus disciplinary cases must be based on the nature and gravity of the charges, and on the range and severity of the potential punishments.
Exactly what protections are required in particular cases, however, remains unsettled. Courts have required protections such as cross-examination and the right to an attorney in some campus cases where they have judged these safeguards to be necessary for basic fairness. But courts have also denied them in other cases where they believed that students could get a fundamentally fair hearing without these protections.
Generally speaking, judges must weigh the costs and benefits, for the institution and for the parties involved, in each particular case. The cost of adding procedural safeguards—in terms of time, effort, money, and interference with the smooth operation of the university—must be balanced against the likelihood of grave error or injustice if the procedural safeguards were not offered.
The following is in regards to a "Dear Colleagues" letter from the OCR to college campuses everywhere. A number of legal minds have said the directive goes to far in denying due process in such cases.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...ment-education-revise-sexual-assault-guidance

Citing an erosion of free speech and due process on college campuses, a group of 21 law professors on Mondayreleased an open letteralleging that the U.S. Department of Education has unlawfully expanded how colleges must define and respond to allegations of sexual assault and harassment.
The same argument has been made frequently in recent months by Republican lawmakers who say that the department’s Office for Civil Rights illegally created new regulations through a series of documents instructing colleges how to handle cases of sexual misconduct. Monday’s letter comes at a time when the department is also facing two lawsuits making the same claim. And a third lawsuit is on the way. The legal argument is an important one, because many colleges revised procedures based on the Education Department guidance -- sometimes saying that they had no choice but to do so.
“OCR needs to clarify which directives it considers to be guidance documents vs. regulations,” the professors wrote. “Directives that are guidance documents need to be revised to eliminate provisions containing obligatory wording, unless these provisions are expressly supported by prior legislation or regulation. Directives that are deemed to be regulations need to be brought into compliance with requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act.”
In 2011, the U.S. Department of Education issued a Dear Colleague letter that urged institutions to better investigate and adjudicate cases of campus sexual assault.
The letter explained how the department interprets Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, and for the past five years it has been the guiding document for colleges hoping to avoid a federal civil rights investigation into how they handle complaints of sexual violence. The department released a similar letter in 2010 about sexual harassment and bullying.
Department officials maintain that the letters merely clarify existing regulations. Critics, however, say that the lettersactually enacted sweeping regulatory changeswithout first going through the required notice-and-comment procedures required by the Administrative Procedure Act.
"Since the [Dear Colleague] letter in 2011, there has been a surge in colleges and universities mishandling investigations and wrongfully prosecuting male students for fear of losing federal funding. Because of these directives that have resulted in a clear disregard for the due process rights of male college students, Grant Neal and hundreds of other male students are facing life-changing consequences for allegations that have not been proven and crimes that have not been committed."
In April, the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education announced that it would represent “a student or institution harmed by OCR’s mandates.” FIRE said this week that it will likely announce the lawsuit sometime in the next month. Like Miltenberg’s lawsuits and the open letter released Monday, the FIRE suit will challenge colleges’ use of the preponderance of evidence standard and argue that OCR violated the Administrative Procedure Act.
“While on its face, the Dear Colleague letter is not intended to be binding legal authority, the department holds it up as binding legal authority, because when they do these investigations, they repeatedly say that preponderance of evidence is that standard colleges must change to,” Kent Talbert, a lawyer and former general counsel for the Education Department, said. “So far, we’ve had the department making the determination that it followed the proper process to make these changes. It’s time to let an independent judge decide.”
More info from FIRE directly related to the letter and due process.

https://www.thefire.org/frequently-asked-questions-ocrs-april-4-dear-colleague-guidance-letter/

With regard todue process, OCR’s April 4 letter requires colleges and universities investigating and hearing allegations of sexual harassment and sexual violence on campus to use a "preponderance of the evidence" standard to determine if someone is guilty. This standard merely requires that it is "more likely than not" that someone is responsible for what they are accused of, and it is our judiciary’s lowest standard of proof. This is because whoever is serving as the "jury" in such a case need only be 50.01% certain that the accused person is at fault.
Given the seriousness of allegations of sexual misconduct-which range from sexual harassment to rape—FIRE believes that requiring universities to find accused students guilty based on this "more likely than not" standard does not sufficiently protect the accused person’s right to due process. For comparison, if you are tried in a real court for any crime, no matter how minor, the more familiar "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard must be used, which means that the judge or jury must be virtually certain of your guilt.
In another threat to due process rights, OCR is mandating that if a university judicial process allows the accused student to appeal a verdict, it must also allow the accusing student the right to appeal as well. As explained below, this requirement means that a student found innocent in a hearing may be retried, even if the charges against him or her have already been proven baseless.
I am mainly using FIRE (The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education) due to their extensive work in this area specifically and the rather dry and unpolitical nature of their published writings. It's quite easy to find hysterical arguments on both sides of this argument. For better or worse a lot changed in 2011 and the stakes are high for victims and the accused alike. No doubt, since 2011 it has been much easier for a school to punish an accused student, thereby depriving them of "liberty (that of attending school and receiving an education) and property (certainly future earnings and possibly reputation)" if not "life", which are outlines specifically in the Constitution as things one cannot be deprived of by the state (even a state institution of higher learning) without due process.

Due process does not mean everything in every case, but it must be consistent and fair. There are plenty of other questions in cases like this like adherence to state laws and regulations and to promises the school has made.

But most of the recent uproar regarding cases like this go back to that letter from the OCR, which has even law professors in an uproar. There is no doubt that schools, under pressure of losing millions of federal dollars, have tilted away from protecting the rights of the accused (and anyone can be accused). We all should certainly want the victims to be protected, but no one is protected when the innocent are convicted in a sham hearing. There are multiple cases out there that show just how ridiculous the implementation at some places has been, even at least one case where the "victim" did not make a report and admitted to consensual activities and stood by the "accused" (who was accused by a third party). The "accused" was STILL expelled.

So while I can't speak to this case and (full disclaimer) I am NOT a lawyer, as a citizen and a father to at least 1 each of both genders I am very concerned that everyone in these cases is afforded a fair opportunity on campus if they should ever be party to such events (God forbid) and that their safety and rights are protected.

Sorry for the length. I just wanted to provide some more information for those interested in it. Again, I don't pretend to know what happened here. I just wanted to help point to more information for anyone interested.

 
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Go Bama

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The police and DA have a lot to do with it because they're the ones that should be deciding to prosecute them on the behalf of the people. As far as I'm concerned - without any evidence that this investigation was corrupted by the DA, law enforcement, or university - these people are innocent and should still be enrolled, scholarship students at Minnesota.

It isn't a public university's job to play court.
The university is not sending these guys to prison. That is the court's job. Evidently the DA or the police didn't think they had a case, but the university has more than enough evidence from both sides, the athletes and the victim, to support misconduct.

The men violated the school's code of conduct. But worse, they violated the woman. The men can sue if the university if they want, but I can't imagine they would succeed.
 

B1GTide

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The university is not sending these guys to prison.
No, but the school may have destroyed their lives. When a man is found guilty of sexual assault, and that is what happened here, it tends to follow him around for a long, long time.

Punish them if you have to, and I believe that they had to, but keep their names and the accusations out of the press. That may be the worst thing to come of this. Their friends, in trying to help these guys, have raised awareness of their accusations to a whole new level. Another unintended consequence of their decision to take this step.
 
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B1GTide

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Sorry, but you are grossly underestimating and/or completely ignoring the impact of Title IX requirements. Fail to follow those and your federal funding can go bye-bye and you can get hammered in civil court. It's not all about whether the acts rise to the level of criminal activity or not. The burden of proof under Title IX investigations is much lower as has been established in this thread. Read the report, the school really had no choice from what I see. It's not about PR, it's about $$$$$$.

Think of it this way. If you sexually harass someone at your workplace - not criminal sexual assault, just harassment - and your employer ignores it when reported, what is probably going to happen? Nobody's getting convicted or going to jail, but if the accuser sues then the company is probably paying a settlement, you're likely getting fired, and so are the people who ignored it. What do you expect the school to do when they are legally bound to investigate and respond per Title IX?

Just to put it in perspective, here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Title IX:
I have had to deal with this in corporate America for decades, and you are correct, but only to a point. If something like this were to happen among work peers at someone's home and the police refused to prosecute, a company would open itself up to a huge law suit no matter what it does or does not do. Don't fire the men and you risk a sexual harassment suit from the woman. But punish the men beyond something that they are comfortable with and they will sue. Corporations would have HR and Legal sit down together and find some way of making this go away without risking a suit, which would lead to something quiet and negotiated. To be sure - I have seen men quietly fired just for having been accused of sexual harassment, but they were given large separation packages to ensure their cooperation. Only when the case was likely strong enough to produce a legal conviction have people at my company been fired for cause, with no severance.

But if you suspended the men without pay or fired them, and then it leaked out that they were fired because of an accusation of sexual assault like this, they would sue. You can bet on it. Because their working future would have been destroyed. No company would hire someone with that hanging over their heads for fear of having it happen again at their business.
 

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