** general challenges Trump on F-35 cost over runs

Displaced Bama Fan

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I always think back to the movie Independence Day when Judd Hirsch said "You didn't really didn't think they spent $10,000 for a hammer and $30,000 for a toilet seat did you?"
 

seebell

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Well, you know, $400 billion here, $400 billion there, pretty soon you're talking some real money.
TW you have paraphrased Everett Dirksen. Or have you?

Misattributed[edit]


  • A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
    • Although often quoted, it seems Dirksen never actually said this. The Dirksen Congressional Research Center made an extensive search[SUP][dead link][/SUP] when fully 25% of enquiries to them were about the quotation. They could find Dirksen did say "a billion here, a billion there", and things close to that, but not the "pretty soon you're talking real money" part. They had one gentleman report to them he had asked Dirksen about it on an airflight and received the reply: "Oh, I never said that. A newspaper fella misquoted me once, and I thought it sounded so good that I never bothered to deny it."
  • https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Everett_Dirksen
 

Tidewater

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TW you have paraphrased Everett Dirksen. Or have you?

Misattributed[edit]


  • A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
    • Although often quoted, it seems Dirksen never actually said this. The Dirksen Congressional Research Center made an extensive search[SUP][dead link][/SUP] when fully 25% of enquiries to them were about the quotation. They could find Dirksen did say "a billion here, a billion there", and things close to that, but not the "pretty soon you're talking real money" part. They had one gentleman report to them he had asked Dirksen about it on an airflight and received the reply: "Oh, I never said that. A newspaper fella misquoted me once, and I thought it sounded so good that I never bothered to deny it."
  • https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Everett_Dirksen
No. I made that up myself.
He said "a billion here, a billion there."
I said "$400 billion here, $400 billion there."
My comment was completely original.
 
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BamaFlum

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He problem with the F35 is that it sucks. Again, the military tried to do too much with an airframe (see F111 program). Existing aircraft outperform it at a fraction of the cost.


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Displaced Bama Fan

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He problem with the F35 is that it sucks. Again, the military tried to do too much with an airframe (see F111 program). Existing aircraft outperform it at a fraction of the cost.


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You know, sometimes its better to stay with simplicity and improve radar and weapon systems - F-15, F-16 & A-10. But what do I know.
 

jabcmb

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Plus all generals aren't "all that." I've had too much exposure to some who were doofuses. That goes back to the current politicized GO selection process which is another topic. Bogdan may be the best and brightest for all I know, but I don't get a good first impression if he wants to yaw yaw with PEOTUS. Maybe Air Force chief of Staff or SECDEF put him up to it.
 

2003TIDE

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You know, sometimes its better to stay with simplicity and improve radar and weapon systems - F-15, F-16 & A-10. But what do I know.
I have a hard time believing this thing will be better than a F-15 at air superiority or out perform an A-10 in ground support. They designed the most expensive jack of all master of none ever.
 

Tidewater

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TW you have paraphrased Everett Dirksen. Or have you?

Misattributed[edit]


  • A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
    • Although often quoted, it seems Dirksen never actually said this. The Dirksen Congressional Research Center made an extensive search[SUP][dead link][/SUP] when fully 25% of enquiries to them were about the quotation. They could find Dirksen did say "a billion here, a billion there", and things close to that, but not the "pretty soon you're talking real money" part. They had one gentleman report to them he had asked Dirksen about it on an airflight and received the reply: "Oh, I never said that. A newspaper fella misquoted me once, and I thought it sounded so good that I never bothered to deny it."
  • https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Everett_Dirksen
I also wrote this, commonly misattributed to Alexander Tytler:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilisations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Plus all generals aren't "all that." I've had too much exposure to some who were doofuses. That goes back to the current politicized GO selection process which is another topic. Bogdan may be the best and brightest for all I know, but I don't get a good first impression if he wants to yaw yaw with PEOTUS. Maybe Air Force chief of Staff or SECDEF put him up to it.
I assumed he was close to retirement. If he weren't, he is now...
 

4Q Basket Case

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Cost accounting for a project like that can yield wildly divergent per-unit "costs," depending on how certain items are treated.

Is R&D that led to breakthroughs used in the project expensed elsewhere, or attributed to the project? What about all the time and effort leading up to the prototype?

Is it calculated on the margin (as in, we wouldn't have had this expense at all if we didn't have the F35 program), or do you attribute salaried employees' time to the project, even though you we'd have been paying them if the F35 were done by someone else?

What about contributions to PACs or other "causes" favored by key members of the group that makes the decision?

Or do you circumvent the whole thing, and count only what it would cost to build one more F35, and just ignore all the stuff that led to the ability to do that?

What about any of a hundred similar questions...what actually constitutes a cost attributable to that project?

You can comport with cost accounting principles and come up with God's own number of answers to what would seem to be a simple question. The bigger the project, the bigger the range.

Side note: How do you hire an accountant (especially a cost accountant)? One question: How much is 2 + 2?

For candidates that answer, "4", shake hands, thank them for their time, and show them the door.

Hire the first one that says, "Hmm...could be a lot of things. What do you want it to be?"
 
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Displaced Bama Fan

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I have a hard time believing this thing will be better than a F-15 at air superiority or out perform an A-10 in ground support. They designed the most expensive jack of all master of none ever.
I'm not sure much can outperform the A-10 when it comes to close ground support. They are like Timex watches, they take a licking and keep on ticking.
 

Bamaro

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I have a hard time believing this thing will be better than a F-15 at air superiority or out perform an A-10 in ground support. They designed the most expensive jack of all master of none ever.
It probably depends on the circumstances. In close air to air combat the new F15s are probably better. In a standoff mode the F35 is deadly before it is even "seen". In close ground support the A10 is like a flying tank and is the best there is.
The cost is another matter.
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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It probably depends on the circumstances. In close air to air combat the new F15s are probably better. In a standoff mode the F35 is deadly before it is even "seen". In close ground support the A10 is like a flying tank and is the best there is.
The cost is another matter.
The A-10 comes in at about $20M per unit. I'm not sure the general can even put up an argument other than the VSTOL capability of the F-35
 

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