Jalen, Tua, and who else? Are we looking to bring in at least one more QB?

capnfrog

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But remember Tua hasn't faced the level of talent that college football has. Especially in the SEC. So he might have killed it in HS but he may not be as good against top level talent.


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That's correct. We won't know anything before spring or possibly fall. Tua may just come out as a world beater or he may fall flat. I don't know what kind of competition Tua played against in high school eitherl. When I have time I will research Tua. Best of luck to both of them.
 
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Bamamax1

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That's correct. We won't know anything before spring or possibly fall. Tua may just come out as a world beater or he may fall flat. I don't know what kind of competition Tua played against in high school. Best of luck to both of them.
Anyone from Tua's area of the world that can tell us about the talent he went up against.


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tusks_n_raider

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I read your post to mean that you expect him to only play 2 more years. Sure, he has a chance. A better chance than most. But only the best passers make it in the NFL. Right now, Hurts is one of the worst passers in college football. Take out his stats from the jet sweeps and look at what's left. Compare them to other QBs in the SEC, in a bad year for SEC QBs. It isn't pretty.
This is just the brutal truth right now if you are honest with yourself. No one is saying he doesn't have talent or intangibles but for whatever reason he can't or won't accurately throw a football beyond 10-15 yards with consistency. Sometime around games 1-4 he became the clear #1. He got ALL the #1 reps the rest of the season. Everyday...Every week with the same group of receivers. His passing stats are smoke and mirror from those pop pass jet sweeps. If you have Ridley, Stewart, and Howard and STILL after 3 months can't get them the ball....when or how is that miraculous pinpoint accuracy and timing going to develop? I'd love to be wrong but an NFL 3 year college talent QB he ain't.
 

Bamabuzzard

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This is just the brutal truth right now if you are honest with yourself. No one is saying he doesn't have talent or intangibles but for whatever reason he can't or won't accurately throw a football beyond 10-15 yards with consistency. Sometime around games 1-4 he became the clear #1. He got ALL the #1 reps the rest of the season. Everyday...Every week with the same group of receivers. His passing stats are smoke and mirror from those pop pass jet sweeps. If you have Ridley, Stewart, and Howard and STILL after 3 months can't get them the ball....when or how is that miraculous pinpoint accuracy and timing going to develop? I'd love to be wrong but an NFL 3 year college talent QB he ain't.
To be honest, I couldn't care less about Hurts' potential NFL career. For us to become a dominant offense he doesn't have to possess Sunday talent. All he has to do is improve from where he was this year. Everyone's developmental path is unique unto itself. You can't roll out a uniformed "development chart" and say if a kid hasn't shown progress 12 games into his true freshman year that he's peaked and will not get better. It doesn't work that way. With Hurts, it may take the season being over and him having the time to truly work on his game. You have to remember, during the season he's just preparing for the next week's gameplan. They don't spend hours upon hours on learning how to read defenses and that's it. Or working hours upon hours on drills specifically to correct his footwork. They are prepping for the next game in five days. So though I'm sure there are some exercises they do to work on the above things. It isn't anywhere near the work that will be put into it during the off season.
 

KrAzY3

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Right now, Hurts is one of the worst passers in college football. Take out his stats from the jet sweeps and look at what's left. Compare them to other QBs in the SEC, in a bad year for SEC QBs. It isn't pretty.
That statement is just a complete and total load of crap. I understand you might be feeling bad about QBs lately, but you might be mistaking how J.T played with how Hurts played. For the record, Hurts had a better game against Clemson than Barrett did. And if you compare those, you might go "yeah but a lot of that was one pass". So? You don't get to take away the big plays! You don't get to cherry pick the stats! What you just said was like saying "well if you take away the big runs from a running back, he's one of the worst in college football". Yeah... if you take out productive parts of a player's statistics, guess what, it looks bad!

Here, take a look: http://www.espn.com/college-football/conferences/statistics/player/_/id/8/sec-conference
Let's just go over those a bit. Hurts is tied for third in the SEC in TD passes. He was 4th in the SEC in passing yards. His rating, the raw statistical judgement on his passing alone has him as 6th in the SEC. Now, you want to remove the short passes from his stats, ok well you have to do that to everyone else to! If you are going to try to judge him that way, you have to judge everyone that way and the truth is a lot of QBs would look far worse if you did that. Heck, just take a look at another true freshman, Jacon Eason (a great passer supposedly). Eason has a 120 rating, well below Hurts, a 55.1 completion percentage, well below Hurts 62.8 and Eason's 16/8 TD/INT is far worse as well. That's without removing the stuff you're talking about from Eason's passing numbers. You think that all came downfield? Of course not! And we're not even talking about Hurts running ability here...

To keep going though, Hurts did what it took to win every single game. The last time he had the ball in the Clemson game, he did something J.T. was incapable of doing. He marched his team down the field and scored to put Alabama back in the lead. He did what he had to do! He did what he had to do every single game! Now, can he improve as a passer? Yes! Should he improve as a passer? Yes! Is he all in all a bad passer? Nope! He finished the season, once again as an 18 year old, facing the #5 defense, the #12 defense and the #8 defense. He did this with a shaky playercaller situation. As it was, he still put his team in the lead every time he had to.

It feels like some people didn't really watch Hurts and consider the variables. I said it was dangerous playing a true freshman, and it is. But Hurts literally outdid every true freshman quarterback in the history of college football! He has issues, yes, but he played the #1 SoS in all of college football, and yet still his numbers are remarkable for a true freshman, and clearly in the upper half of the SEC. He went through a ton of adversity, and he remained poised and effective when he had to be. He'll only get better. Don't dismiss the fact that he's a good quarterback now, but truth is he could easily become a great college quarterback, he won't have too far to go.
 
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CrimsonEyeshade

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Excellent and rightfully optimistic post.

That statement is just a complete and total load of crap. I understand you might be feeling bad about QBs lately, but you might be mistaking how J.T played with how Hurts played. For the record, Hurts had a better game against Clemson than Barrett did. And if you compare those, you might go "yeah but a lot of that was one pass". So? You don't get to take away the big plays! You don't get to cherry pick the stats! What you just said was like saying "well if you take away the big runs from a running back, he's one of the worst in college football". Yeah... if you take out productive parts of a player's statistics, guess what, it looks bad!

Here, take a look: http://www.espn.com/college-football/conferences/statistics/player/_/id/8/sec-conference
Let's just go over those a bit. Hurts is tied for third in the SEC in TD passes. He was 4th in the SEC in passing yards. His rating, the raw statistical judgement on his passing alone has him as 6th in the SEC. Now, you want to remove the short passes from his stats, ok well you have to do that to everyone else to! If you are going to try to judge him that way, you have to judge everyone that way and the truth is a lot of QBs would look far worse if you did that. Heck, just take a look at another true freshman, Jacon Eason (a great passer supposedly). Eason has a 120 rating, well below Hurts, a 55.1 completion percentage, well below Hurts 62.8 and Eason's 16/8 TD/INT is far worse as well. That's without removing the stuff you're talking about from Eason's passing numbers. You think that all came downfield? Of course not! And we're not even talking about Hurts running ability here...

To keep going though, Hurts did what it took to win every single game. The last time he had the ball in the Clemson game, he did something J.T. was incapable of doing. He marched his team down the field and scored to put Alabama back in the lead. He did what he had to do! He did what he had to do every single game! Now, can he improve as a passer? Yes! Should he improve as a passer? Yes! Is he all in all a bad passer? Nope! He finished the season, once again as an 18 year old, facing the #5 defense, the #12 defense and the #8 defense. He did this with a shaky playercaller situation. As it was, he still put his team in the lead every time he had to.

It feels like some people didn't really watch Hurts and consider the variables. I said it was dangerous playing a true freshman, and it is. But Hurts literally outdid every true freshman quarterback in the history of college football! He has issues, yes, but he played the #1 SoS in all of college football, and yet still his numbers are remarkable for a true freshman, and clearly in the upper half of the SEC. He went through a ton of adversity, and he remained poised and effective when he had to be. He'll only get better. Don't dismiss the fact that he's a good quarterback now, but truth is he could easily become a great college quarterback, he won't have too far to go.
 

BamaMoon

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I wouldn't be too sure about Hurts not having to fight for his chance to play. CNS wants Jalen to get better by having to fight for playing time. I think from what I hear, that Tua is a significantly better passer than Jalen Hurts and may not be lagging behind as a runner. I think Jalen would naturally be ahead of Tua in strength and conditioning and also reading defenses as well as knowing the playbook more. Jalen has more than a good shot of being the starting QB this fall but it isn't a given. May the best man win. The way it is and the way it should be. RTR
This is the "Six one, half dozen the other" dilemma.

After watching Tua's tape he looks like he could be un upgrade as a passer, but how will that translate into college when the defense is a little stiffer??? If you watch Jalen's HS tape he looked pretty good then too.

Also, we could easily argue that JH's running skills won us a few games in the regular season that Blake Barnett might not have been able to win. But then, despite going undefeated, JH's undeveloped passing skills is the most obvious reason we couldn't win the big game.

I think BamaRich pointed it ought a couple of days ago, but it probably would have been worth losing a game somewhere along the way (like the Auburn game when the SEC had already been won) to allow Jalen to develop as a passer.

Going forward what if JH is the better runner and Tua is the better passer??? That's getting above my paygrade, real quickly.
 

B1GTide

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That statement is just a complete and total load of crap. I understand you might be feeling bad about QBs lately, but you might be mistaking how J.T played with how Hurts played. For the record, Hurts had a better game against Clemson than Barrett did. And if you compare those, you might go "yeah but a lot of that was one pass". So? You don't get to take away the big plays! You don't get to cherry pick the stats! What you just said was like saying "well if you take away the big runs from a running back, he's one of the worst in college football". Yeah... if you take out productive parts of a player's statistics, guess what, it looks bad!

Here, take a look: http://www.espn.com/college-football/conferences/statistics/player/_/id/8/sec-conference
Let's just go over those a bit. Hurts is tied for third in the SEC in TD passes. He was 4th in the SEC in passing yards. His rating, the raw statistical judgement on his passing alone has him as 6th in the SEC. Now, you want to remove the short passes from his stats, ok well you have to do that to everyone else to! If you are going to try to judge him that way, you have to judge everyone that way and the truth is a lot of QBs would look far worse if you did that. Heck, just take a look at another true freshman, Jacon Eason (a great passer supposedly). Eason has a 120 rating, well below Hurts, a 55.1 completion percentage, well below Hurts 62.8 and Eason's 16/8 TD/INT is far worse as well. That's without removing the stuff you're talking about from Eason's passing numbers. You think that all came downfield? Of course not! And we're not even talking about Hurts running ability here...

To keep going though, Hurts did what it took to win every single game. The last time he had the ball in the Clemson game, he did something J.T. was incapable of doing. He marched his team down the field and scored to put Alabama back in the lead. He did what he had to do! He did what he had to do every single game! Now, can he improve as a passer? Yes! Should he improve as a passer? Yes! Is he all in all a bad passer? Nope! He finished the season, once again as an 18 year old, facing the #5 defense, the #12 defense and the #8 defense. He did this with a shaky playercaller situation. As it was, he still put his team in the lead every time he had to.

It feels like some people didn't really watch Hurts and consider the variables. I said it was dangerous playing a true freshman, and it is. But Hurts literally outdid every true freshman quarterback in the history of college football! He has issues, yes, but he played the #1 SoS in all of college football, and yet still his numbers are remarkable for a true freshman, and clearly in the upper half of the SEC. He went through a ton of adversity, and he remained poised and effective when he had to be. He'll only get better. Don't dismiss the fact that he's a good quarterback now, but truth is he could easily become a great college quarterback, he won't have too far to go.
I said just remove the jet sweeps. Go ahead. Do it. Then report back with his stats. No other QB ran close to the number of jet sweeps as Alabama did, so I am fine with doing the same for everyone else. Those are glorified hand offs. They are not passes.

ESPN did a piece before the Clemson game in which they charted him as a passer. Almost everywhere on the field he is less than a 35% passer.
 

B1GTide

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To be honest, I couldn't care less about Hurts' potential NFL career. For us to become a dominant offense he doesn't have to possess Sunday talent. All he has to do is improve from where he was this year. Everyone's developmental path is unique unto itself. You can't roll out a uniformed "development chart" and say if a kid hasn't shown progress 12 games into his true freshman year that he's peaked and will not get better. It doesn't work that way. With Hurts, it may take the season being over and him having the time to truly work on his game. You have to remember, during the season he's just preparing for the next week's gameplan. They don't spend hours upon hours on learning how to read defenses and that's it. Or working hours upon hours on drills specifically to correct his footwork. They are prepping for the next game in five days. So though I'm sure there are some exercises they do to work on the above things. It isn't anywhere near the work that will be put into it during the off season.
I also agree with this. I was talking about hurts as an NFL prospect. You can win championships with him at QB with only marginal improvement as a passer because of the talent that surrounds him on offense and defense.
 

TideEngineer08

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B1GTide, you seem more bitter about this loss than most Alabama fans. Frankly, you seem more bitter about Alabama losing than you did about Ohio State getting blasted.

Hurts was a freshman QB. Yes, obviously he struggled mightily in some areas. He was a true freshman! He should not have even been playing this year except in mop up duty but he was so good that he was the best option. That is, frankly, astonishing. Just the mere fact that he actually started 14 of 15 games, and played the staring role in the one game he didn't start (USC), is something that is almost completely unheard of in major college football.

Yes, the jet sweep pass play was a big portion of his yards. But he still did pretty well otherwise, especially his ability to extend broken plays with his feet, to the tune of more rushing yards in a single season than any other Alabama QB in history, as well as more rushing yards combined than all other Nick Saban QBs combined.

He has weaknesses that he needs to shore up. This is obvious. Yet I see absolutely no reason to be down on him, nor any reason to doubt that over an off season of practice those weaknesses will get fixed.

I'm just confused by your consternation, is all.
 

tusks_n_raider

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I said just remove the jet sweeps. Go ahead. Do it. Then report back with his stats. No other QB ran close to the number of jet sweeps as Alabama did, so I am fine with doing the same for everyone else. Those are glorified hand offs. They are not passes.

ESPN did a piece before the Clemson game in which they charted him as a passer. Almost everywhere on the field he is less than a 35% passer.
His final stats were 239 for 381 62.7% 2,751 yrds 22TD's 9INT's. Going into the game we ran 84 'Pass Plays' BEHIND the LOS. He was 80 for 84. Those are basically running plays honestly. Take those away.....look just at plays where he throws it 0.1 Yards or further past the LOS and he was 159 for 297 54%. The further away from the LOS you get the worse it gets.

Here's the chart....It's UGLY.
 

B1GTide

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B1GTide, you seem more bitter about this loss than most Alabama fans. Frankly, you seem more bitter about Alabama losing than you did about Ohio State getting blasted.

Hurts was a freshman QB. Yes, obviously he struggled mightily in some areas. He was a true freshman! He should not have even been playing this year except in mop up duty but he was so good that he was the best option. That is, frankly, astonishing. Just the mere fact that he actually started 14 of 15 games, and played the staring role in the one game he didn't start (USC), is something that is almost completely unheard of in major college football.

Yes, the jet sweep pass play was a big portion of his yards. But he still did pretty well otherwise, especially his ability to extend broken plays with his feet, to the tune of more rushing yards in a single season than any other Alabama QB in history, as well as more rushing yards combined than all other Nick Saban QBs combined.

He has weaknesses that he needs to shore up. This is obvious. Yet I see absolutely no reason to be down on him, nor any reason to doubt that over an off season of practice those weaknesses will get fixed.

I'm just confused by your consternation, is all.
Not really. I was saying the exact same things 2 months ago. But I still believe in him. I picked him to be the mvp of both playoff games.
 

TideEngineer08

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It's ugly because he was a TRUE freshman. It is supposed to be ugly. It would have been otherworldly if it wasn't ugly.

The jet sweeps and his running ability made up for it. His amazing ability to maintain composure is what allowed him to keep coming back from any kind of mistake he made. These things will always be there for him and over time he will improve as all QBs improve and the accuracy on throws down field will come and he will be an All-American/Heisman.

If these stats were of a junior, then we would have a legit reason to be worried.
 

B1GTide

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It's ugly because he was a TRUE freshman. It is supposed to be ugly. It would have been otherworldly if it wasn't ugly.

The jet sweeps and his running ability made up for it. His amazing ability to maintain composure is what allowed him to keep coming back from any kind of mistake he made. These things will always be there for him and over time he will improve as all QBs improve and the accuracy on throws down field will come and he will be an All-American/Heisman.

If these stats were of a junior, then we would have a legit reason to be worried.
Again, my comments in this thread are tied to his NFL prospects. It took a monumental effort by Clemson to stop you guys on Monday with him at QB. I have more of a beef with the play calling in that game. Hurts was put in a very bad position. The loss is on your coaches, IMO.
 

KrAzY3

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People want to partially break down stats, and really you can't do that. To reiterate, if you break down the numbers on any number of QBs you'll see similar things. For example, Bateman completed 49 passes in his Alabama career, how many of those were downfield? In 2015 Bateman averaged 5.6 yards per completion! This is the guy some people wanted to start! This is the guy I got bashed for questioning. This was his second year playing, and the guy averages 5.6 yards, what do people think he was throwing? This compared to Hurts 7.3 by the way. So, give other QBs a hard look and you see other things emerge as well. Also, raw stats just completely ignore SoS. Of course a guy's numbers are going to look worse against elite defenses...

That aside, if you go by yards per completion, yes Hurts drops down the list. Unquestionably, but he's 9th in the SEC out of 15 QBs in that stat. He's ahead of Luke Del Rio, Trevor Knight, and you guessed it, Jacob Eason (well ahead Eason is 6.6, bear in mind two of those guys could have been Alabama's QB). Now, if Eason isn't padding his stats with short stuff, how in the heck does he have only a 6.6 average? That's when these comparisons are unfair, people are isolating Hurts and trying to disparage him, but you need to find comperables. Now, we get it, we want Hurts to look like Chad Kelly or Austin Allen as a passer. They averaged 8.6 and 8.4 respectively. That's where we want Hurts to get to. Allen is a Junior and Kelly is a senior. Give Hurts some time, it is an area he can improve on.

I'll elaborate a bit on that. Go back to the Clemson game, where did a lot of the struggles come from? You can break it down a bit He missed on a couple deep passes. Not terrible mind you, more like Brodie style overthrows where only the Alabama player ever had a chance. There was several dropped passes, what about 5 that could have been caught? He might have put a little too much zip on those though, so we'll share the blame. Then you have a few batted down balls. Also, there were the throw aways, and while that's better than throwing it to the other team, like you know J.T. did with his two INTs (which would have been devastating to Alabama), it's not ideal either.

What does it take to improve on that stuff? Not much really. Hurts needs to improve his ability to read defenses/vision. This should improve over time and as he studies film. He's been engrossed in game prep for most of the season, some things he hasn't had a chance to work on. I imagine once he has time to review film, and get some takeaways from playing the toughest opposition any QB in the FBS faced, he'll learn from it. Then, he needs to improve his touch a bit more. He is not wildly erratic. There are very few passes from him that are ever just well off target. If he works in the offseason, he should improve in this area and if he does, his production would go up accordingly (which is a scary proposition for the opposition).

Anyway, there's nothing ugly about Hurts season. Yes, if you try to break it down to minutia you will find things that are ugly, but if you break down anyone's performance enough things like that will emerge. There's a reason I keep going back to Eason. He's the only really fair SEC comparison in my mind. And what do we see? We see Eason doing worse in pretty every measurable category (against easier competition), including the the fact that Eason actually had more short stuff...
 
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TideEngineer08

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Again, my comments in this thread are tied to his NFL prospects. It took a monumental effort by Clemson to stop you guys on Monday with him at QB. I have more of a beef with the play calling in that game. Hurts was put in a very bad position. The loss is on your coaches, IMO.
I was really replying to the graphic posted just before, with all of his passing stats.

I wasn't continuing to go after you...
 

KrAzY3

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One thing has been irritating me a little bit. It's fair to question some of Hurts abilities, even if you overlook the incredible difficulties he faced. I think it's insulting and unfair to use terms like "ugly" and to say "Hurts is one of the worst passers in college football.". The same poster that made that last statement also made the claim that Hurts was 35% almost everywhere else on the field (other than jet sweeps). The chart that was provided showed that Hurts was above that in 8 out of the 9 areas of the field beyond the LOS. So that statement seems misleading. Much like the claim he's one of the worst passers in college football. Said poster asked for the jet sweeps to be removed to prove his point though, so that has been done for him with the chart on the previous page. Not just jet sweeps were removed though! Anything behind the LOS, even if it was in fact an actual pass!

What does the chart really tell us though? Ok, we're removing 544 yards passing and 4 touchdowns. Viola, gone. We're also ignoring the the 954 rushing yards and 13 touchdowns. So, just to have this conversation we're ignoring 1498 yards of total offense and 17 touchdowns. Toughest schedule in the FBS, true freshman, messy playcaller situation, all of that is just going to be set aside. That (once again on the previous page) chart gave us handy color coding. We see red when he was in the lower 25%, green when he was in the upper 25%. Now mind you, we're breaking his passes past the line of scrimmage, actual passes, into 9 areas and then they're being ranked as either bad, good, or average.

What do we have? He had 89 "bad" passes. However, there are 66 passes he threw which were "good" passes. This leaves 23 bad compared to 59 average passes. I'm not going to pretend that makes him an elite passer, obviously he isn't. One could argue based on that, that he is in fact a below average downfield passer. But, to exaggerate those issues to the point that somehow he's one of the worst now? That his completion percentage gets exaggerated downward? That's simply not fair and not accurate. He can't be considered one of the worst passers in college football, if most of his downfield passes are not bad!

Now that we've basically done all we can to make him look bad though (and it seem that it still isn't as bad as some claim), we can look further. Jalen Hurts finished the season facing brutal competition. He faced 4 good defenses, but there's more to it than that. Against Miss. State, when he wasn't facing a great defense, and he was allowed to focus on his passing, he was masterful. He had a 184.7 rating, 4 TDs, he looked fantastic. The following game he had a 173 rating, another good showing against weaker competition. Then he faced Auburn, a solid defense and his numbers went down a bit more. He faced Florida a even better defense, and as one could expect his numbers went down further. For the record, Jacon Eason did worse against both Auburn and Florida. Then what happened? Hurts had to face a great defense and Kiffin was out to lunch. This resulted in his worst game of the season. Clemson? The team that just got through murdering J.T.? New OC, and Hurts has his second worst game. If you think this is somehow an accurate picture of Hurts as a player though, then you're not comprehending what really happened. He had to face two top 10 defenses with a playcaller that was limited.

The truth is, when Hurts was facing average competition, he was an above average passer. It was only when he faced tough competition, and tough circumstances that his weaknesses really showed through. This isn't abnormal, this is normal. The abnormal thing is that Hurts had to face so many good teams. Hurts was a true freshman, he had a lot of things to deal with like coordinator musical chairs. He had to face a lot of tough defenses. You put a guy like Eason in there, he looks worse, J.T. looked worse.

Hurts might regress, but there's nothing at all in the stats that show that. What the stats show is a guy who a fairly average downfield passer, that is above average is just about every other respect.
 
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day-day

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My son insists that Hurts has an NFL arm but I have seen maybe 2 throws that come close to indicating this. Regardless of stats and decision making, I see an NFL arm on Eason at UGA. He can stand flat footed and put some zip on an across the field pass.

Maybe Hurts physically has the arm to do this but needs to improve technique. I'm not ready to say Hurts is a 3 year and out to the NFL QB until I see this.
 

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