Does Alabama need a Special Teams Coordinator?

KrAzY3

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There's a bit of a discussion going on in the recruiting forum, but I thought it was worth discussing some aspects here. Early on in Saban's tenure I lamented the fact that special teams seemed to be an afterthought. However, after considering a lot of the intricacies, and the realization that Alabama is actually pretty good on special teams (I know given some place kicking issues that's hard to accept but they're generally above average) made me accept that that was how things had to be. There are competing schools of thought, from mocking Auburn for giving a scholarship to a long snapper, or questioning key players being used on special teams, to calling for a dedicated special teams coach, and Alabama giving a long snapper a scholarship.

With the impeding addition of an extra on-field coach, people are starting to wonder if Alabama should or will add a special teams coach. For comparison purposes, I saw there were only 6 dedicated special teams coaches in the Power 5. While this can be expected to go up, there's good reason for few dedicated special teams coaches. While it might seem weird that Alabama has a running back/special teams/associate head coach, special teams is a division of labor. You can't have the same guy position coaching place kickers, gunners, kick returners, punt returners, long snappers, holders, and punters. They're too disparate, you can't just line them all up and have them do the same drills.

So, when people suggest Alabama get a special teams coach, I think the main thing people are thinking of would be someone who is capable of coaching the kickers and punters. The problem is that's a pretty limited scope. That sort of guy does exist though. Chris Gould was a punter and place kicker in college, he went on to be a "special teams quality control coach" at Syracuse, and he also ran his own punting and kicking camps. He's now coaching with the Broncos. The trick though is the Broncos can have unlimited on-field coaches and they have 20.

Gould is actually an assistant for Brock Olivo now. Brock is the Broncos Special Teams Coordinator. He was a special teams phenom in college, but most assuredly not a kicker. He was good enough on special teams to land a job in the NFL for a few years. The problem is I don't think a guy like Brock is who a lot of people have in mind when they suggest a special teams coach. They want someone like Gould. However, with half as many coaches as the Broncos, can Alabama really afford to have a guy who can only coach place kickers and punters? Isn't that still too little to ask of someone who takes up such a valuable resource?

I'd love to imagine a kicker who is capable of overseeing the entire special teams effectively, but that's just hard to picture. Kickers are usually good for little else and asked to do little else. While many NFL teams do have kickers on the team in some coaching capacity, almost all of them have special teams coordinators and almost all of those coordinators were not kickers. It is easy to see the advantage of a special teams coordinator though. He could fulfill a similar role to that of the offensive and defensive coordinator. He could draw up plays, prepare for opposing special teams, call plays, etc... I can't imagine this is something Burton Burns really has a lot of time to do given his other roles.

So, the dream would be someone who could be a positional coach for kickers and punters, be a special teams coordinator and assist in recruiting of not just kickers, punters, and long snappers, but ideally help attract players that would shine as gunners and returners as well. However, I fear even if a special teams coach is added, the likely choice will be between a special teams coordinator or a kicking coach. Which would really be best for the team?
 

JustNeedMe81

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That would be good. There are many aspect of kicking game they can work on exclusively with the coach such as how to kick properly, getting some training and learning how to kick to certain spots. I think if we had a coach for Scott, he probably would be kicking over 49 yards per game.
 

KrAzY3

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As long as he can recruit a kicker as good as Carlson at auburn it doesn't matter to me what he does.
Thing is, it will matter to Saban. He's not going to hire a position coach to recruit one position every four years, heh. Not only that, but how many kickers are you aware of that are also great recruiters? It is easy to put up a wish list, but filling it is the hard part, and I imagine that's why dedicated special teams coaches are so scarce in college football.
If by "Special Teams Coordinator" you mean "FG kicking coach", then YES. We need one.
That's the thing. Losing on position coach to such a specialized task is really a huge investment. Not just that, but there's absolutely no guarantee it will give a good return on the investment either. We can theorize that with a dedicated position coach, Foster and Griffin wouldn't have had any issues, but that's purely speculative and those issues might have occurred anyway. Poor play is not always the result of poor coaching.
 
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BamaMark.

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Thing is, it will matter to Saban. He's not going to hire a position coach to recruit one position every four years, heh. Not only that, but how many kickers are you aware of that are also great recruiters? It is easy to put up a wish list, but filling it is the hard part, and I imagine that's why dedicated special teams coaches are so scarce in college football.

That's the thing. Losing on position coach to such a specialized task is really a huge investment. Not just that, but there's absolutely no guarantee it will give a good return on the investment either. We can theorize that with a dedicated position coach, Foster and Griffin wouldn't have had any issues, but that's purely speculative and those issues might have occurred anyway. Poor play is not always the result of poor coaching.
But are our kickers getting any coaching, or are we putting them out there kicking field goals all practice hoping the more they kick the better they get. There needs to be some technique taught as well. I'm not saying this is what's happening, just speculating.
 

4Q Basket Case

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To boil Krazy's post down, coaching kicking technique is far different from coaching special teams. For that matter, placekicking technique bears little resemblance to punting.

I'm not aware of any college team that has a coach actually teaching kicking technique of any sort. If there are any at all, there aren't many.

The newly-approved coaching position might change that, but due to the extremely limited scope Krazy already identified, I kind of doubt it.

My prediction would be more dedicated Special Teams Coordinators, who I would see as coaching protection packages, return and coverage schemes, and identifying weaknesses in opponents' special teams. But not how best to put foot on ball.
 

KrAzY3

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But are our kickers getting any coaching, or are we putting them out there kicking field goals all practice hoping the more they kick the better they get. There needs to be some technique taught as well. I'm not saying this is what's happening, just speculating.
They are not getting coaching from anyone on staff as far as I'm aware. They have their own coaching, you know like the camps run by McCabe or Gould. I mean do you really want a running back coach telling them how to kick?

The heart of the issue is the otherwise good for nothing nature of kickers. They're so outside of what you see from regular football players for the most part (ok so Cade Foster played linebacker in high school but he was the exception and one has to wonder if that negatively impacted his development as a kicker). So, I don't really hear anything about them fulfilling larger roles, being strong recruiters, heck being on coaching staffs, because these guys have a very narrow skillset. If you watch a kicker trying to tackle, or do a fake you get the idea...

That doesn't mean having one on staff isn't warranted, but I think the pertinent question is what ultimately would help special teams more? A guy who can coach kickers, or perhaps a guy that can both recruit well for special teams and oversee the process as a whole? That aside, a lot of just stupid luck factored into where Alabama is now. AG was 8 out of 13 in the SEC in field goal percentage. That's ok but not great. Ahead of him at 4th was a guy Alabama had on deck up until AG really entrenched himself at the position. Then at 2 is Carlson, and we've been over this before. Alabama had AG on scholarship, they weren't going to be adding another kicker... Neither of those teams have a dedicated special teams coach either, but they were in the right place at the right time.
My prediction would be more dedicated Special Teams Coordinators, who I would see as coaching protection packages, return and coverage schemes, and identifying weaknesses in opponents' special teams. But not how best to put foot on ball.
Yup, that's what I'm leaning towards as well. Thanks for stating it more succinctly. This should provide a benefit to the kickers though, by putting them in better positions to have success.
 

92teamownsall

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I vote yes. We have the resources for it and not only for kicking but the kickoff coverage could use better coaching and how about coaching for scenarios like the kick 6.
 

BamaInBham

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Bama's kicking woes, I mean foot to ball, have been overstated, IMO. In the last 9 years, Bama is 4 made FGs total from being at the national average. 4 years they've been above the avg, the other years usually just a 1 or 2 short. IIRC, only 2 games over these years has FG kicking been a factor in a Bama loss: LSU '11 and AU '13, not the kick 6 but the earlier FGs missed that allowed AU to remain within striking distance. My guess is that Bama has tried far more long range (40+) FGs than most programs over that stretch, which has negatively affected their overall %. The college % drops from 72.8 overall to 59.? for the 40-49 range. I'm sure there are stats somewhere that break down distance %s. Bama may actually be above avg when taking distance into account, IDK.

Punting has been a big plus for Bama, with 7 of the 9 years Bama being above avg. In fact, in 3 of the last 5 years Bama has been top 4, 4 of 5 top 14 and all 5 years in the top 27. This is out of 120-128 teams.

Looking at the stats superficially, it seems that most programs are somewhat erratic (e.g., AU went 102, 2, 52 in FG ranking from 2008-2010) when it comes to PK and punting. I assume it is primarily based on the kicker not coaching. Because kicking is so mental and the difference between HS and P5 environments is so great, it is extremely difficult to project. Bama has had top rated kickers with mixed success, as have most other programs. And Coach Saban is very positive with kickers sticking with them and encouraging them publicly.

IIRC, under Saban, Bama has never lost a game on a late game miss to tie or win, except a 58 yarder. Of course, there have been few opportunities. Think about Boise State, short kicks and even XPs I believe, that have deprived them of important wins. FSU under Bobby Bowden, NCSt vs Clemson, etc. It happens all of the time in college.

I'm not saying that Bama should not do everything they can to improve, but that, IMO, the kicking woes are greatly overstated. Others have well pointed out that kicking the ball is only one part of special teams.
 

lowend

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Legit question here, but are our special teams actually all that bad?

It seems like since Burns took over for Bobby Williams we have been getting better returns and stopping the other teams better. JK Scott is a phenom. For some reason, it seems like Griffith took a nosedive after the ESPN feature -- maybe injury? As much as I would love someone to just coach our kickers, I feel like that spot could be better used elsewhere. How about a coach whose focus is to make sure we don't get burned on 3rd and long passes to the right side of the field?
 

RTR91

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Legit question here, but are our special teams actually all that bad?

It seems like since Burns took over for Bobby Williams we have been getting better returns and stopping the other teams better. JK Scott is a phenom. For some reason, it seems like Griffith took a nosedive after the ESPN feature -- maybe injury? As much as I would love someone to just coach our kickers, I feel like that spot could be better used elsewhere. How about a coach whose focus is to make sure we don't get burned on 3rd and long passes to the right side of the field?
This was Burns' first year


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TIDE-HSV

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Legit question here, but are our special teams actually all that bad?

It seems like since Burns took over for Bobby Williams we have been getting better returns and stopping the other teams better. JK Scott is a phenom. For some reason, it seems like Griffith took a nosedive after the ESPN feature -- maybe injury? As much as I would love someone to just coach our kickers, I feel like that spot could be better used elsewhere. How about a coach whose focus is to make sure we don't get burned on 3rd and long passes to the right side of the field?
He has battled a stress fracture in his spine since his freshman year. This season, I saw some worrying signs that it may have returned, as they are apt to do...
 

KrAzY3

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Bama's kicking woes, I mean foot to ball, have been overstated, IMO.
I was questioned previously, because I stated that Alabama special teams as a whole were very good (I produced stats backing up my assertion). People remember a few bad outings, and the struggles of a couple of place kickers but it's easy to lose perspective when doing that. When I looked a couple things up before I made my post, I saw that Alabama was top 50 in 4 out of 5 categories on special teams, which by the way was at the top of the list of top coaches. Alabama's special teams in general are good, and Alabama's place kicking has been a bit erratic but generally speaking it's been solid as well.

Legit question here, but are our special teams actually all that bad?
They're not. That's why I'm not calling for a full time place kicking specialist or something. On the other hand, I do understand the angst. Due to circumstances Alabama didn't have complete control over, they lost out on two elite place kickers. In addition to that, they recently had the top kicking prospect decommit. To me though the issue isn't that there's a dire need there, but more so what makes the team better? I can see a dedicated special teams coordinator doing that, but I feel like he'd need to be able to recruit well to warrant the consideration.

He has battled a stress fracture in his spine since his freshman year. This season, I saw some worrying signs that it may have returned, as they are apt to do...
Yeah, he was a top prospect and he has some good stretches. We'll never really know how good he would have been had he been completely healthy.
 

4Q Basket Case

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He has battled a stress fracture in his spine since his freshman year. This season, I saw some worrying signs that it may have returned, as they are apt to do...
We may have seen the same thing...a hitch in the follow-through, dropping a shoulder, maybe to keep the rotation from putting so much stress on the back.

Even acknowledging the rotational stress placekicking puts on the back, I've never heard of a stress fracture in the spine in a person that young. Makes me wonder about Griffith's early childhood in Poland, and whether it might result from poor nutrition.
 

Saban4Ever

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I liked Adam, even though he did miss a lot of kicks through the years. I am so glad he made the on-side kick in last year's Clemson game though.

I sure hope our new kicker will be a success. I don't know much about him yet other than he de-committed from Georgia Tech. It would be nice to have a great, reliable kicker.
 

TRU

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I do not know if a full time coach is needed, but isn't there any way to get the kickers and punters some help? The Tide's never seem to improve much, while some of our rivals (Auburn and Tennessee at least when they had the Colquitts coming up) seem to have a more reliable kicking game that Bama does. What do they do that Bama does not?
 

KrAzY3

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What do they do that Bama does not?
Get lucky? I mean seriously, Alabama is limited with their on field coaches, you know the guys who actually coach the players. There can be outside help of course but that varies. I once took a look at some of the top kickers and I saw a guy for like Maryland who massively improved, turned into an elite kicker. Turned out that the Ravens kicker had been working with him. I guess it helps if you have a NFL kicker to help you, or in Leigh Tiffin's case, a great kicker as a father. The college can't provide that though, as in they literally are not allowed to. So, circumstance becomes a huge factor.
 

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