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  1. #14
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by sabanball View Post
    Interesting to consider how this (pro-unionists throughout the area) could have impacted Streight's Raid through the area in 1863 (2 years after the Free State of Winston is declared)





    Probably a long complicated list of happenings, lost to history, not in that quote from wiki.
    Later in the war, but my family was spared of Union troops' foraging because they were Union. At any rate, I would imagine that an armed raid would be resisted throughout this region. That is the nature of the Scot...
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  3. #15
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    That's not what I meant. I'm well aware of the great consolidation following Reconstruction when people whose antecedents were Union found it convenient to forget that heritage. What I was referring to was his description of all such people as being criminals or nearly so. I never heard that growing up. He obviously did...
    I think it was the ne'er-do-well component of draft dodgers. There were gangs of ne'er-do-wells all over the South in 1865 (I think over half the paper strength of the Confederate army was AWOL in 1865), who were neither pro-Union or pro-Confederate, but who just wanted to stay out of the army and had to support themselves by stealing. In the Deep South, that mostly meant avoiding Confederate conscription. From that point it is easy to lump a legitimate pro-Union soldier in with the less noble draft dodger/thief, since they both declined to turn up for Confederate enlistment.

    You bring up an interesting point. For those areas of the slave states that were quickly occupied by Union forces (say the western slopes of what is now West Virginia or coastal NC or SC), and were theoretically subject to Union conscription officers, did draft dodging have the same moral cast as draft dodging in areas that remain under Confederate control until the end? Did a man who dodged the draft in the Outer Banks of NC or in Beaufort, SC or the Ohio River counties of WV earn an aura of a modern-day Robin Hood, or was he seen as the same as the draft dodger of Tuscaloosa County?

  4. #16
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by sabanball View Post
    Interesting to consider how this (pro-unionists throughout the area) could have impacted Streight's Raid through the area in 1863 (2 years after the Free State of Winston is declared)



    Probably a long complicated list of happenings, lost to history, not in that quote from wiki.
    For one thing, Streight started his campaign with two men per horse, hoping to pick up horses in northern Alabama. Starting out a long ride with half the necessary horses was not a wise move.

  5. #17
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    For one thing, Streight started his campaign with two men per horse, hoping to pick up horses in northern Alabama. Starting out a long ride with half the necessary horses was not a wise move.
    And foraging for food. Foragers have no friends...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

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  6. #18
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidewater View Post
    I think it was the ne'er-do-well component of draft dodgers. There were gangs of ne'er-do-wells all over the South in 1865 (I think over half the paper strength of the Confederate army was AWOL in 1865), who were neither pro-Union or pro-Confederate, but who just wanted to stay out of the army and had to support themselves by stealing. In the Deep South, that mostly meant avoiding Confederate conscription. From that point it is easy to lump a legitimate pro-Union soldier in with the less noble draft dodger/thief, since they both declined to turn up for Confederate enlistment.

    You bring up an interesting point. For those areas of the slave states that were quickly occupied by Union forces (say the western slopes of what is now West Virginia or coastal NC or SC), and were theoretically subject to Union conscription officers, did draft dodging have the same moral cast as draft dodging in areas that remain under Confederate control until the end? Did a man who dodged the draft in the Outer Banks of NC or in Beaufort, SC or the Ohio River counties of WV earn an aura of a modern-day Robin Hood, or was he seen as the same as the draft dodger of Tuscaloosa County?
    I have a hard time regarding them in 1865 all as "ne'er do wells" or draft dodgers. Most were really deserters who knew they had families starving back home and dropped their arms to quit a war they didn't have a personal interest in to return and try to salvage their farms. Mostly people tended to ignore drifters they knew were deserters. Have you read "Cold Mountain"? It's an excellent, well researched account of the era and the predicament of these men...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  7. #19
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Facebook "friend of a friend" just posted that the first Congressional Medal of Honor winner from Madison County was Richard Taylor, who won it fighting in the Union Army...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  8. #20
    BamaNation Hall of Fame cuda.1973's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Thanks for posting this. When I tell folks, who do not know the history of Alabama, that the "confedera-sah" (Cartman-ese, for those not familiar with it) was not all that popular with the dirt farmers, of Northern Alabama................well, the looks of disbelief I get...................

    Or, quite possibly, they have no grasp of geography, and how certain agricultural activities revolve around that.
    Last edited by cuda.1973; February 9th, 2017 at 04:42 PM. Reason: spelling
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    BamaNation Hall of Fame cuda.1973's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    In the end, I think that the north Alabamians just didn't feel that much commonality with the south Alabamians, with whom they had been grouped whimsically by pen on paper at a point in history. They came by a different migration route and were separated ethnically, primarily Scot/Irish, as opposed to primarily English. I grew up with the north/south Alabama schism being a fact which was discussed regularly...
    You could say that we still don't, which is why we can't stand API.

    "What's this 'we' stuff? You are an 'eye-tie'."

    Yes, but living in Birmingham.................(and also that other place where they once made steel), it rubs off on you.
    "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own, to do as I please."

  10. #22
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by cuda.1973 View Post
    Thanks for posting this. When I tell folks, who do not know the history of Alabama, that the "confedera-sah" (Cartman-ese, for those not familiar with it) was not all the popular with the dirt farmers, of Northern Alabama................well, the looks of disbelief I get...................

    Or, quite possibly, they have no grasp of geography, and how certain agricultural activities revolve around that.
    The truth of the matter is that cultural areas in the US don't align with geopolitical lines at all. Here is a book which opened my eyes and helped me understand a lot of issues I didn't have insight into - American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America (Kindle Books).
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  11. #23
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by cuda.1973 View Post
    You could say that we still don't, which is why we can't stand API.

    "What's this 'we' stuff? You are an 'eye-tie'."

    Yes, but living in Birmingham.................(and also that other place where they once made steel), it rubs off on you.
    There was always resentment of the way the south half of the state ruled politics when a minority of the population lived there. This resentment percolated all the way down to the high school level...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  12. #24
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by cuda.1973 View Post
    You could say that we still don't, which is why we can't stand API.

    "What's this 'we' stuff? You are an 'eye-tie'."

    Yes, but living in Birmingham.................(and also that other place where they once made steel), it rubs off on you.
    BTW, there are lots of Italians in HSV. Some of my best friends are. No prejudice here...
    "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. - Ellen Parr"

    'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' - Steve Jobs

    I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Albert Camus

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  13. #25
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    There was always resentment of the way the south half of the state ruled politics when a minority of the population lived there. This resentment percolated all the way down to the high school level...
    Yes, I guess that Selma, Montgomery, and Mobile ruled the politics of the state in the 19th century and into the early 20th century. It is interesting to study the landscape of of Alabama in its first 100 years as a state with the power being in the south and Demopolis as well. My maternal grandmother's father was born in 1879 and I remember as a small kid hearing conversations as if they were about modern happenings and looking back, I am astounded how sharp my GGF's mind was at 100 years of age.

  14. #26
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: The Proposed "State of Nickajack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    I have a hard time regarding them in 1865 all as "ne'er do wells" or draft dodgers. Most were really deserters who knew they had families starving back home and dropped their arms to quit a war they didn't have a personal interest in to return and try to salvage their farms. Mostly people tended to ignore drifters they knew were deserters. Have you read "Cold Mountain"? It's an excellent, well researched account of the era and the predicament of these men...
    I wouldn't say all of them were. Your G grandfather, a farmer, enlisted in a regular US Army unit, whose farm was (largely) spared due to his Union service (i.e. not driven to desperation) was one end of the spectrum. But the entire South in 1865 had little packets of men, many far from home,# relieved from the social restraints of the army,* lurking in the woods, living by less than honorable means. And when the fighting stopped, those packets of men did not just automatically go away. In fact, US Army officers on occupation duty just after the war was over complained about lawless gangs everywhere.
    To give you an idea of the scale, in the 1 March 1865 returns for the Army of Northern Virginia alone, there were 46,000 officers and men present and 116,000 men absent and present, or 70,000 men not with their units. And the situation was even worse in the Army of Tennessee. Those men were somewhere. Some (probably Virginians and Tarheels) made it home. Many were lurking.


    # Think of a soldier from Louisiana serving in Virginia who deserted. Where did he go? He might try to work his way back home, but there were conscription officer everywhere, so he might just set up for himself in a swamp, or a forest or a mountain and steal what he needed to stay alive.

    * Confederate units were mostly recruited from the same community, so if a soldier misbehaved, he would have to go home to the disgrace for the rest of his life.

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