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Illegal Salvadoran woman with brain tumor to be deported

Displaced Bama Fan

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crimsonaudio

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Still trying to figure out if we're supposed to be a 'Christian nation' or not - seems like both sides flip and flop on that depending on what's being discussed. Shocking.
 
92tide

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crimsonaudio said:
Still trying to figure out if we're supposed to be a 'Christian nation' or not - seems like both sides flip and flop on that depending on what's being discussed. Shocking.
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just so you know, i was aiming this at the christians who seem to react with glee when people who they think are beneath them are treated like crap
 
Tidewater

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92tide said:
just so you know, i was aiming this at the christians who seem to react with glee when people who they think are beneath them are treated like crap
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Trying to understand your position. Are you arguing that every foreigner with a serious illness has the right to come to the US and get health care paid for by the US taxpayer? Or is there some limit? Is it that only illegal immigrants who are already in the US that have serious illnesses have a right to health care paid for by the US taxpayer? And if it is the latter, and you do not secure the border, is there a substantive difference between that and the former?

If the US had a national surplus of $19 trillion, we could have a serious discussion on how we could spend that to improve the lives of people all over the world. Unfortunately, we seem to have a $19 trillion debt.
 
92tide

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Tidewater said:
Trying to understand your position. Are you arguing that every foreigner with a serious illness has the right to come to the US and get health care paid for by the US taxpayer? Or is there some limit? Is it that only illegal immigrants who are already in the US that have serious illnesses have a right to health care paid for by the US taxpayer? And if it is the latter, and you do not secure the border, is there a substantive difference between that and the former?

If the US had a national surplus of $19 trillion, we could have a serious discussion on how we could spend that to improve the lives of people all over the world. Unfortunately, we seem to have a $19 trillion debt.
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im saying our immigration policy should be humane.
 
Intl.Aperture

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92tide said:
im saying our immigration policy should be humane.
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That's pretty vague. I know you've travelled a bit so I'm sure you know that in the world and specifically in Central America there are no shortages to people who are in dire need. To be humane (if we can agree on what that entails) to every individual in that region who has suffered adverse circumstances would be impossible. Domestic violence is like the common cold, collateral damage or impressment from the gangs are everyday occurrences. There was an article recently from the Yale professor Paul Bloom talking about the downside of empathy and it's effect on policy. Moderation in all things. At first I thought it sounded ludicrous but I read everything he had to say and I would largely agree. Immigration is one of those areas where too much empathy can be harmful.

I think the difficult thing is that everybody is asking one another where to draw the line. Where can we say, "This over here is ok, but this over here, isn't"? It's like the determinate of the consensual age for sex. Stephen Fry did a talk at Oxford where he wondered out loud how it seems odd that a single day should make a difference in one's emotional maturity enough to determine whether they can have sex. That's all it comes down to. On one day you are 15 and, in the eyes of the law, have no ability to decide for yourself whether you should have sex or not; and then that same night at midnight (again, in the eyes of the law) you suddenly gain that maturity. It's a fairly arbitrary number and reckoning method. Now that's just an analogy so I don't want to get carried off talking about that, but it is similar in some ways with immigration. I think few people on here (from what I recall reading) would argue that "open borders" are a good idea. So where do we draw the line and what academic and humane means do we use to draw this line, and when we DO draw the line how far are we willing to go to enforce that line we've put on the books?

To me, it's a difficult question that I don't feel comfortable answering with certainty. Of course I can look at an individual woman escaping domestic violence with a brain tumor and the human(e) side in all of us says, "Oh, just let her stay here!" but where does it stop and how can we devise a system to look at individual cases for the thousands upon thousands of people with unique and varying situations?
 
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Displaced Bama Fan

Displaced Bama Fan

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crimsonaudio said:
Still trying to figure out if we're supposed to be a 'Christian nation' or not - seems like both sides flip and flop on that depending on what's being discussed. Shocking.
Click to expand...
So, she illegally entered our country and broke our laws. I'm not sure how that equates to being a Christian nation. A nation without laws will fail.

Also, she's here illegally, hence, more than likely has limited to no income and no way of paying for treatment so it's now falling on the taxpayers to do so. How very "Christian" of us to be so generous with our tax dollars.

If the Catholic Missions or some other non-profit want to step up and foot the bill, I'm fine with her staying through the course of her medical treatment, I just don't think I should be "forced" to pay for her medical treatment via tax dollars, nor should the people of the county she currently is getting treatment in.
 
92tide

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Intl.Aperture said:
That's pretty vague. I know you've travelled a bit so I'm sure you know that in the world and specifically in Central America there are no shortages to people who are in dire need. To be humane (if we can agree on what that entails) to every individual in that region who has suffered adverse circumstances would be impossible. Domestic violence is like the common cold, collateral damage or impressment from the gangs are everyday occurrences. There was an article recently from the Yale professor Paul Bloom talking about the downside of empathy and it's effect on policy. Moderation in all things. At first I thought it sounded ludicrous but I read everything he had to say and I would largely agree. Immigration is one of those areas where too much empathy can be harmful.

I think the difficult thing is that everybody is asking one another where to draw the line. Where can we say, "This over here is ok, but this over here, isn't"? It's like the determinate of the consensual age for sex. Stephen Fry did a talk at Oxford where he wondered out loud how it seems odd that a single day should make a difference in one's emotional maturity enough to determine whether they can have sex. That's all it comes down to. On one day you are 15 and, in the eyes of the law, have no ability to decide for yourself whether you should have sex or not; and then that same night at midnight (again, in the eyes of the law) you suddenly gain that maturity. It's a fairly arbitrary number and reckoning method. Now that's just an analogy so I don't want to get carried off talking about that, but it is similar in some ways with immigration. I think few people on here (from what I recall reading) would argue that "open borders" are a good idea. So where do we draw the line and what academic and humane means do we use to draw this line, and when we DO draw the line how far are we willing to go to enforce that line we've put on the books?

To me, it's a difficult question that I don't feel comfortable answering with certainty. Of course I can look at an individual woman escaping domestic violence with a brain tumor and the human(e) side in all of us says, "Oh, just let her stay here!" but where does it stop and how can we devise a system to look at individual cases for the thousands upon thousands of people with unique and varying situations?
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where i draw a line is not deporting sick folks whose only crime is being here "illegally"

but i don't make policy
 
Intl.Aperture

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Displaced Bama Fan said:
In what regard? Humane is fine, but I'd rather be humane through non-profits that help them in their country.
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This may be a separate topic but I do believe that the "Church" as an institution has largely failed in this realm. I agree with you that I don't look to the government to solve these sort of problems, as a Christian I think a lot of that burden should fall to the church. I have seen the benefits of USAID, though I know you and I disagree on the merits of USAID as well. :tongue:
I'm sure most people who attend church can point to a few programs they do at local shelters or some missions here and there but I think we should be doing more.

AND YET, America is far and away the most charitable nation in the world (followed by New Zealand, Canada and the U.K.) and even so I think we could do more.
 
92tide

92tide

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crimsonaudio said:
I didn't read the article so I have zero opinion on this particular case but I do wonder why you have the word illegally in quotes. Is she not here illegally?
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i don't know her status. that is for the folks who are equating a person being here undocumented/illegally with being a violent criminal who poses danger.
 
Intl.Aperture

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92tide said:
where i draw a line is not deporting sick folks whose only crime is being here "illegally"

but i don't make policy
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You say "only" as though they shoplifted a candy bar. I don't think entering another nation illegally is a trivial matter. I think it's pretty serious. I think people in Central America don't take it seriously either. I met 3 teens from Honduras who were caught and deported and they stated to my face that they did it for the adventure and because they were bored. And then they asked me why they were treated like criminals when they were caught. They were offended that they were handcuffed and put face first on the ground. I say that only to illustrate that many folks (not all) don't think crossing the border illegally is a big deal.

Also, I don't have stats or figures to back this up but I feel like if we turn your sentiment, as stated above, into firm policy we would be utterly overwhelmed by the amount of people with conditions showing up. The tax it could put on our system I could see creating a scenario where many people, both here illegally and legally could suffer.
 
crimsonaudio

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92tide said:
i don't know her status. that is for the folks who are equating a person being here undocumented/illegally with being a violent criminal who poses danger.
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I don't see much of that, though I do see lots of folks who see it as a completely black-and-white issue. I'm not sure it always is. I'm fairly certain those people who believe illegal status should always mean an automatic deportation would complain if all US laws were enforced in the same black-and-white manner.

ETA: scanning the article it does say she's here illegally.
 
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