Yahoo: Tim Williams admits failing multiple drug tests at UA

uafan4life

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Unless it is over-used. I have seen 2 instances in my personal life of friends who were perfectly healthy, physically and mentally, but who simply smoked too much weed and ended up hospitalized for schizophrenia. Both recovered within a few days when marijuana was no longer available. Both have been perfectly healthy since - both gave up mj after this happened to them.

Not a huge sample size, but I wouldn't ignore those kinds of occurrences.
Which is why I said "rarely if ever" as opposed to "never".

And I would argue that anyone who makes the conscious choice to smoke themselves into hospitalization is probably not completely, mentally healthy.


I love it when people try to use logic but suck at it. It's great for a laugh. A fallacy is a bad inference -- yours involved some version of the genetic fallacy -- "The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context." Please which fallacy did I use?
I would say a combination of a contextual fallacy and a circular cause fallacy.

For one, my argument wasn't that "there are no dangers to marijuana use".

For two, I said that "It's obvious that when you have to resort to spreading such atrociously inaccurate lies about the dangers of a substance, you don't have any real dangers to talk about."

While my statement used a royal you, the specific you - in the application of my statement to the referenced instance - would have been the bigwigs of the tobacco industry. My applied statement therefore implies that they resorted to spreading lies about the dangers of marijuana because they had no real dangers to spread. That doesn't mean that there aren't any dangers at all. It also doesn't mean that they weren't aware of a single, actual potential danger. What it does mean is that they had no actual potential dangers which either they and/or their intended audience would have considered to be real dangers.



Your claim, that there are no dangers of MJ to talk about hardly needs to be "disproven", but if you like, it can be disproven by your own admission, namely, that it can be abused. That which can be abused surely has some dangers worthy of being talked about.

You are correct only this far, that neither alcohol nor MJ cause a person to consume them. After that, what you are saying is hard to take seriously. This reminds me of the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument except applied badly. It is definitely true that people choose to pull the trigger, and in that sense it is people who kill people. But not even the most ardent gun's rights activist would be so silly as to say the bullet wasn't the cause of death. Of course alcohol causes its effects, and so does MJ. That's why we use them... they work.

Saying MJ doesn't cause any problems is foolish. Of course I think many forms of substance abuse have deeper or prior causes like emotional problems. Then again, sometimes irresponsible young people just make bad choices. And sometimes responsible people choose a course of action which is good in itself but has negative side effects. All of these situations have dangers worthy of being talked about. It's not a one size fits all position. One thing is clear, however, that the use of MJ has plenty of possible pros and cons, all of which are a direct result of the properties of the substance itself, and not merely a property of the choice to use it. It is sheer wishful thinking on your part to imagine a substance that strong with only positive effects. It is not I but the vast experience of humanity that refutes you.
See above.


Anyway, this argument about the argument is off topic. I'm satisfied with how Coach and the school handled the situation, I really hope it works out for Tim, that he is effectively free to make good choices, and I think either extreme is pretty much just that... extreme.
I agree. I think a big part of the issue is sort of a feeling of entitlement to information - on the part of fans and news-people, especially, and the public in general. If we don't hear about it, it didn't happen, doesn't count, etc. We don't care so much about - or perhaps don't like - a policy that secretly suspends a player in an attempt to give them the best chance to correct their behavior and decision making processes because we don't get to see the process in action. We're much more comfortable with a press conference announcing a suspension.
 

B1GTide

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Which is why I said "rarely if ever" as opposed to "never".

And I would argue that anyone who makes the conscious choice to smoke themselves into hospitalization is probably not completely, mentally healthy..
The two that I mentioned both were, before and after, so you can argue all you wish but you would be wrong. And me, a single person, knowing 2 people who have experienced this shoots down the "rarely" suggestion, too. This happens so often that there is an official diagnosis for it.

I have nothing against weed and believe it to be much safer than most mind altering drugs, but any drug which alters brain chemistry poses a risk.
 

uafan4life

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The two that I mentioned both were, before and after, so you can argue all you wish but you would be wrong. And me, a single person, knowing 2 people who have experienced this shoots down the "rarely" suggestion, too. This happens so often that there is an official diagnosis for it.

I have nothing against weed and believe it to be much safer than most mind altering drugs, but any drug which alters brain chemistry poses a risk.
I would posit that the root problem was not that they merely smoked marijuana but rather that they were willing to abuse a drug - any drug - to the point of hospitalization.

Unless, of course, you're arguing that the only reason they abused it was because the marijuana prevented them from stopping and that a similar level of abuse could not have occurred had another drug been their primary choice?
 

B1GTide

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I would posit that the root problem was not that they merely smoked marijuana but rather that they were willing to abuse a drug - any drug - to the point of hospitalization.

Unless, of course, you're arguing that the only reason they abused it was because the marijuana prevented them from stopping and that a similar level of abuse could not have occurred had another drug been their primary choice?
People believe that there are no safety limits with weed, so they smoke too much. If people really understood the risks, they would smoke less and avoid this. But too many simply believe as you do, that this doesn't happen to people "like me".
 

uafan4life

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People believe that there are no safety limits with weed, so they smoke too much. If people really understood the risks, they would smoke less and avoid this. But too many simply believe as you do, that this doesn't happen to people "like me".
To be fair, since I do not and have no inclination to use recreational drugs I think, for me, that's a pretty safe assumption. :)

I also think it's a safe bet to say that if you never abuse drugs then there's very little chance of it happening to you.

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Alasippi

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As I stated in my earlier post, whether pot is legal, whether it's harmful, whether there's scientific evidence of this or that, whether you've done it or not, believe in it or not, whatever...that should be on the non-sports board, but I'm not a Mod.
My points have been based on one thing and one issue..team rules.
If a player continually breaks team rules he is showing a total lack of respect for all the other players who are abiding by and following them.
He's the type of player who can not be counted on when any game's on the line in the fourth quarter because his discipline level is lower than his team mates and his opponents who do indeed follow team rules.
The only way it can be overcome is if the player is soooo astronomically talented that nothing can stop him.
Tim was a very good player for Bama, but, against Clemson, was he really even in the same league as Ryan Anderson? No.
Yet he's rated as a much better pro prospect. At least he was. But this report, IF TRUE, will drop Tim to at least the second round.
Personally, I hope the report is BS for Tim's sake.
Whether weed is bad or not is a moot point here.
sip
 
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cuda.1973

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My points have been based on one thing and one issue..team rules.
If a player continually breaks team rules he is showing a total lack of respect for all the other players who are abiding by and following them.
Luckily, we pay CNS millions of dollars, to deal with this sort of clutter.

No, CNS is not perfect. (No one obviously is.) But, he seems to be able to manage it. And get it right, more times than not. I'm just glad it is him, and not me.

Don't think y'all would like the outcome, if I was. (Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't like it, either.)

RTR.
 

Rush

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Why would anyone need weed to get HIGH? Get HIGH off LIFE and HELPING OTHERS! Just
watch an advertisement for Shriners' Hospital or St. Jude's Hospital and see the kind of life
those real FIGHTERS have. That's enough to make you want to HELP others instead of making
DRUG Dealers $RICH$ off weak minded people who can't face life without cigarettes, weed, alcohol, etc.
Instead of wasting your $$$$$$$ on cigarettes, weed, alcohol, etc. help others and you will feel much better
about yourselves.

Mild-mannered Clark Kent may have been on weed; Superman wasn't! So, I think someone
was saying that T. Williams didn't do squat in the championship game. So, I guess he was a
mild-mannered Clark Kent type of guy playing against Clemson.
Love those Shriners' / St. Jude's Hospital commercials...

Man, do they ever provide me with a healthy does of perspective...


That being said, while it may well mean that I'm weak minded, I've come to realize that practicing law is, um, thirsty work... :wink:
 

Alasippi

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Luckily, we pay CNS millions of dollars, to deal with this sort of clutter.

No, CNS is not perfect. (No one obviously is.) But, he seems to be able to manage it. And get it right, more times than not. I'm just glad it is him, and not me.

Don't think y'all would like the outcome, if I was. (Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't like it, either.)

RTR.
I'll agree. I wouldn't want his job either. I can't even imagine.
 

ptw1961

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Dec 8, 2011
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Love Coach Bryant but he never met a bottle of Jack Daniels he did not embrace.
No I think Bryant was absolutely right. He suspended Namath from the team and kicked him out of the athletic dorm because he broke a team rule for drinking in public.
Every assistant coach tried to talk him out of it but one, and that was Gene Stallings.
But I think he was absolutely correct in doing so.
He eventually let him back on the team but didn't allow him to play in the Sugar Bowl.
He got his point across and Namath said it was the best thing that coach could have done.
 

ptw1961

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They will both be 1st round picks. A little weed in their background will have a minimal affect on their financial future. You are old school and I respect that- but times have also change quite a bit.
If the coach say's "Don't smoke pot", then don't smoke pot. If you do, then get your butt off the team.
I don't care what the legalities should be, may be, or may happen to be. If the coach say's the team rule is, "Don't smoke pot", and you do, then goodbye.
I could care less about legalize this or legalize that. If the coach say's don't do it, and you do, then you're not going to be a team player in a critical championship situation.
Bryant suspended the best QB we'll ever have because he broke a team rule heading into the Sugar Bowl.
He didn't give a crap about the "legality" of drinking in a bar. He didn't give a crap if the fans drank in a bar, and he didn't care if, at one time in their life they drove home drunk. He knew if he let Namath slide, that he'd lose the rest of the team.
He suspended Namath because he told the players, "Don't drink in a bar", and he did. That simple.
Tim is going to lose a bunch of money over this. Cam probably will too. And while I feel for them both....yeah...they deserve it, period.
 

JDCrimson

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I am fairly certain CNS didn't devise his discipline model all by himself. Given his propensity to use consultants in all aspects of his program, he likely has done it in this area as well.

It's not practical to have suspension as the only primary form of discipline just to put forth some public validation that discipline is being meted out. What do you do with a kid that has some real natural life changing ability who because of his upbringing and immaturity probably doesn't appreciate his ability to the level he should? Suspend him to such a degree that he can't learn the value of his ability only to ultimately return to that environment from which he came?

There has to be balance and it appears to me that CNS does as good a job as any. I think it's pretty easy to see the line he has drawn with all the previous public discipline issues - meaning you commit a felony your most likely gone or have zero tolerance policy to get back.

I think if we all could truly appreciate how desperate some of the situations are players migrate from where they have basically raised themselves, I think we would truly amazed at how few discipline problems we have.

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AlexanderFan

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Unless it is over-used. I have seen 2 instances in my personal life of friends who were perfectly healthy, physically and mentally, but who simply smoked too much weed and ended up hospitalized for schizophrenia. Both recovered within a few days when marijuana was no longer available. Both have been perfectly healthy since - both gave up mj after this happened to them.

Not a huge sample size, but I wouldn't ignore those kinds of occurrences.
Here's another one: this guy was so "enlightened" on this wonderful innocent narcotic that he simply ignored the oncoming train and paid for it with his life. He left behind two young daughters nine days before Christmas 2009.


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MattinBama

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Here's another one: this guy was so "enlightened" on this wonderful innocent narcotic that he simply ignored the oncoming train and paid for it with his life. He left behind two young daughters nine days before Christmas 2009.


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Not trying to be flippant about this story but... Sounds a lot like legal alcohol.
 

CrimsonProf

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I am fairly certain CNS didn't devise his discipline model all by himself. Given his propensity to use consultants in all aspects of his program, he likely has done it in this area as well.

It's not practical to have suspension as the only primary form of discipline just to put forth some public validation that discipline is being meted out. What do you do with a kid that has some real natural life changing ability who because of his upbringing and immaturity probably doesn't appreciate his ability to the level he should? Suspend him to such a degree that he can't learn the value of his ability only to ultimately return to that environment from which he came?

There has to be balance and it appears to me that CNS does as good a job as any. I think it's pretty easy to see the line he has drawn with all the previous public discipline issues - meaning you commit a felony your most likely gone or have zero tolerance policy to get back.

I think if we all could truly appreciate how desperate some of the situations are players migrate from where they have basically raised themselves, I think we would truly amazed at how few discipline problems we have.

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Stop being reasonable!
 

Tideflyer

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I am fairly certain CNS didn't devise his discipline model all by himself. Given his propensity to use consultants in all aspects of his program, he likely has done it in this area as well.

It's not practical to have suspension as the only primary form of discipline just to put forth some public validation that discipline is being meted out. What do you do with a kid that has some real natural life changing ability who because of his upbringing and immaturity probably doesn't appreciate his ability to the level he should? Suspend him to such a degree that he can't learn the value of his ability only to ultimately return to that environment from which he came?

There has to be balance and it appears to me that CNS does as good a job as any. I think it's pretty easy to see the line he has drawn with all the previous public discipline issues - meaning you commit a felony your most likely gone or have zero tolerance policy to get back.

I think if we all could truly appreciate how desperate some of the situations are players migrate from where they have basically raised themselves, I think we would truly amazed at how few discipline problems we have.

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Herein lies the issue in so many instances, IMO, and you`re right. It is indeed amazing that we have as few problems as we do.
 

CrimsonProf

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If Tim isn't drafted in the First Round, it will be because of concerns about his every down status (and I doubt he will be drafted in the first round). If Cam falls out of the first round, it will be because of inconsistency (he'll go in the first 20-25). It won't have anything to do with pot.

It could have something to do with Tim, but it won't have anything to do with Cam.
 

CrimsonProf

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Herein lies the issue in so many instances, IMO, and you`re right. It is indeed amazing that we have as few problems as we do.
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Coach Bryant could have kicked off pretty much any guy on the team and the guy could have gone on to work a decent middle class job in a factory. That world is gone and if you were to kick out every modern play who got caught with weed, you'd be sending many of them - though certainly not all - back into a really, really bad situation.
 

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