What do these represent, though?
In conference record? What?
And besides, does proving Coach Mac is better than Hothead Muschamp or Zook prove anything at all?
USAToday has Florida picked No. 22
- Thread starter Redwood Forrest
- Start date
In conference record? What?
And besides, does proving Coach Mac is better than Hothead Muschamp or Zook prove anything at all?
You cannot argue with stats, but you can make them say whatever you wish. The only thing that matters - he has been there for 2 seasons and won his division both years. How that happened doesn't matter - it only matters that it happened. To have him on a hot seat after those two years is idiotic.
Now, it is fair to say that he hasn't achieved enough for anyone to know his limits. Has he already reached those limits, or will he (and the Gators) continue to improve? We will all find out together.
It is the off-season. Every fan is full of optimism. I love Bazza's enthusiasm and don't understand why you guys feel the need to pick his posts apart when he is clearly doing what we all do - seeing the best in his team / head coach and hoping for better.
Now, it is fair to say that he hasn't achieved enough for anyone to know his limits. Has he already reached those limits, or will he (and the Gators) continue to improve? We will all find out together.
It is the off-season. Every fan is full of optimism. I love Bazza's enthusiasm and don't understand why you guys feel the need to pick his posts apart when he is clearly doing what we all do - seeing the best in his team / head coach and hoping for better.
Post of the thread so far. Hot seat? Puh-leeze.
Plus, this year will be primarily HIS recruits so we can begin examining that part. Terry Bowden and Gus Malzahn BOTH.....Dennis Franchione as well......they all did VERY well with what was already in the pantry. Malzahn had the advantage of having been involved in the recruiting of many of the players as well. But the follow-on for all three has not been/was not overly impressive.
Well, let's be fair, too. I DO think too many Tide fans have a tendency to try to view other teams through "this would not be a success at Alabama" eyes. McElwain will eventually have to have his team in the running for the SEC and national titles or he will be gone. I think we do him a disservice by not admitting he IS off to a DECENT though certainly not phenomenal start. On the other hand, he took over a five-loss team and turned them into a four-loss team - and he's had too many close calls.
Bazza mentioned the QB injury but not mentioned in that scenario is that Del Rio was there and they still only got 24 points against UMass in a HOME game (MSU, meanwhile, got 47 against UMass in Foxborough). I'll spot UF, though, since openers can be tricky even against - or perhaps especially against - the great unwashed of college football).
also a fair point.
I think part of the dismissal comes from the fact that Florida SHOULD be able to cruise in the East. Of course, the hills are littered with the bones of generals who underestimated seemingly lowly opponents, too.
Oh yeah, off-season is ROUGH!!!!
Mac has gone 41-24 overall with a 19-8 record at Florida (13-3 in the SEC).
Muschamp went 23-14 in his three years at Florida (17-15 in the SEC). His overall record is 34-27.
Ron Zook went 23-14 at Florida with a 16-8 SEC record. He is 57-65 overall. No idea where you got the 25% winning record.
I don't believe anyone is saying he is on the hot seat, we are mostly arguing against people putting him up with the top half of SEC coaches or that he will have Florida rolling just because he won the east two years in a row. Fwiw Bazza is also picking our posts apart too. We aren't questioning his enthusiasm or optimism, we are arguing the nuts and bolts of Mac's tenure (i.e. Recruiting and the state of the East). We are more looking at the totality of circumstances of the past 2 years. It's just good conversation in the offseason amongst fans. Nothing malicious.
Take this hypothetical in perspective. Let's say CGS lost the 92 SECCG. Would Bama fans or SEC fans view him as a great coach or the best SECCG participant from the crappy side of the conference? Do you as a Big 10 fan view Iowa's coach as this good coach? And back to my Gus point, who on this board believes he is a good coach and willing to admit it? If not then it is very hypocritical to say Mac is but Gus isn't based upon SECCGs. Fwiw I think both are "decent" but not anything more at this point.
My main point is I'm not convinced that Mac is this great improvement from Mush based on stats, games, and recruiting. I'm not so sure that Mush couldn't have back to back eastern titles the last two years as well. So I put Mac into the Hugh Freeze and Gus Malzhan tier until he shows that he is a contender and more than a participant.
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I don't follow recruiting as closely as some of you. Do you know how Florida has recruited under McElwain compared to before him? I have this feeling that the way Kirby has recruited so far will mean big trouble for McElwain at Florida. compared to before him? I have this feeling that the way Kirby has recruited so far will mean big trouble for McElwain at Florida.
I agree with this. We will know what he is capable of in a few years. Right now we just don't know. But even if he has peaked, he isn't Ron Zook. At worst he is a capable head coach who might need to move down to a lesser conference or a school with lower expectations.
And it should be mentioned that someone in this thread commented that Coach Mac has been terrible with his recruiting AND because of that...his seat may become warm.
An argument could be made that other teams that had superior recruiting records over the past 2 years (Coach Mac's tenure at Florida) finished below Florida at the end of the season.
So one could make the argument that while we all know recruiting ranking are very important....they alone do not directly dictate how well a program performs each season.
All that said....Florida's recruiting has improved each of the past 3 cycles under Coach Mac....and he has brought in a couple new staff members who *should* help that effort going forward.
Jess had us at #4 in the SEC this year, in fact.
Saying "If he doesn't improve in recruiting then he could be in trouble" is a lot different than saying," he is a terrible recruiter that will go on the hot seat". Again UF should hang around 6th in national recruiting. As far as Mac improvement in recruiting also take into account that he entered signing day at #19.
Also take into account I didn't add transition period so 2015 doesn't count due to the crazy swings with regime changes. It's like saying that we should really count CNS's 2007 class.
If you look at Mac as making significant improvements in recruiting then that's fine, but it isn't FLORIDA type improvement, and I think we can agree on that. And the fact that Miami is at 11 should be alarming.
I assumed he wasn't talking about overall record on that basis alone. That's why I asked for clarification.
When I say, "Houston Nutt was a below .500 football coach" - and he WAS....I specifically reference it to his SEC record. They've gotten better but Arky was notorious for scheduling four overmatched cupcakes to boost their record into bowl contention, and I stand by that assessment. They did that even before Nutt.
Here's their OOC:
1993 - SMU (just coming off the death penalty), Memphis (loss), Tulsa
1994 - SMU, Memphis (another loss to a 6-5 mediocrity), N Illinois
1995 - SMU (loss), Memphis, SW La
1996 - SMU, NE La, La Tech
1997 - same as 1996
1998 - SW La, SMU, Memphis
1999 - SMU, ULM, MTSU
2000 - SW Mo St, ULM, Boise (note: Nutt had coached there but this was before their inflated rep that was several years away)
2001 - UNLV, Weber St, UCF
2002 - Boise, USF, ULL, Troy
2003 - Tulsa, Texas, UNT, NM State
2004 - NM State, Texas, ULM (note they dropped one this year when adding the tough opponent)
2005 - Mo State, USC, ULM (again - only 11 games)
2006 - USC, Utah St, SE Mo, ULM
2007 - Troy, UTC, UNT, FIU
2008 - W Illinois, ULM, Texas, Tulsa
2009 - Mo State, E Michigan, Troy, Texas A/M (Big 12 back then)
2010 - Tenn Tech, ULM, ATM, UTEP
2011 - Mo State, New Mexico, Troy, ATM
2012 - Jax St, ULM, Rutgers, Tulsa
2013 - ULL, Samford, USM, Rutgers
2014 - Nicholls, Texas Tech, N Illinois, UAB
2015 - UTEP, Toledo, Texas Tech, UTM
They got better at their scheduling around 2003. slightly. Their SEC strategy used to go like this: win the three chump games, beat the Mississippi teams, and in the year we draw Vandy or Kentucky, we're in a bowl game. Put everything into one of the BIG games (Alabama, Auburn, and eventually LSU) and you're a seven-win team in a semi-decent bowl.
Nutt's entire coaching career in the SEC consists of beating cream puffs and that one real big "play our best game" upset every year. He still needed referee help to beat us in 2000 and 2003 (two of our worst teams in the last 60 years) and botched kicking to beat us in 2006.
Nutt rant over except I support the opinion with data.
McElwain? Not Nutt yet, no. Better than Nutt at this point. Let's just see how it plays out.
Yes, I agree with you. I don't know why a couple of posters here have lumped me with "those Bama fans" who think Mac is the Second Coming. I have never said that and he does have a recruiting problem it seems. But to say he is a poor HC is just silly. I say he is a good HC .... he has to be to overcome his lack of recruiting, doesn't he? How many other SEC coaches won their division title their first two years? I haven't looked it up but Mac has done that. Kirby has not. Muschamp has not. Mac is very lucky guy or a good HC. Time will tell.
Because you are making the same argument as "those Bama fans", and have nothing other than two east championships to challenge our point of emphasis that he has benefited from an extremely mediocre east. Only Ole Miss hangs divisional championships* in their stadiums.
decent doesn't equal poor. None of us said poor.
Again Gus Malzahn had a harder schedule in 2013, harder division, won the SEC, and did it with a db as his quarterback. That is far and away more impressive than being a SECCG sacrificial lamb that comes from the far inferior side of the conference.
Its Kirby's first year. Nick Saban didn't in his first year, but Gus did.
In 2011 (Mushchamp's first year) He played Bama and LSU back to back weeks without his starting qb. Then he drew Auburn at Jerkin Hair Stadium. So he drew both National championship teams and the previous national champ in 3 straight weeks. Mac hasn't drew 2 top West teams in one year ( unless you are counting Ole Miss) under the current 6-2 schedule. I would say Muschamp had one of the hardest schedules in 2011 with FSU, Bama, LSU, UGA, Auburn, and USCe. It is Bama 2007 without USCe
2012- UGA was clearly the better team, and it came down to that one game.
Point is Mush's first two years were WAY harder than Mac's
That's our point.
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"decent doesn't equal poor. None of us said poor."
You are saying "poor" if we are saying "great." What is funny is he does have two division championships. He did not buy them at a yard sale. I am only basing my argument on CHAMPIONSHIPS. What a foolish argument on my part.
You are saying "poor" if we are saying "great." What is funny is he does have two division championships. He did not buy them at a yard sale. I am only basing my argument on CHAMPIONSHIPS. What a foolish argument on my part.
You can't just be result oriented, you have to look at context. By your logic, Gene Chizik is a great coach because he won a national championship but we all know that's not true."decent doesn't equal poor. None of us said poor."
You are saying "poor" if we are saying "great." What is funny is he does have two division championships. He did not buy them at a yard sale. I am only basing my argument on CHAMPIONSHIPS. What a foolish argument on my part.
Mac is currently a decent/above average coach but you can't just look at his two SECE titles and make that conclusion. You have to look deeper and then realize Mac benefitted GREATLY from the East being a dumpster fire.
Well Larry Coker, Dabo Swinny, Gene Chizik, Mark Helfrich, Chip Kelly,Houston Nutt, Jackie Sherill, and Gus Malzhan are some of the best since they won a championship at some level according to you."decent doesn't equal poor. None of us said poor."
You are saying "poor" if we are saying "great." What is funny is he does have two division championships. He did not buy them at a yard sale. I am only basing my argument on CHAMPIONSHIPS. What a foolish argument on my part.
And in what world does decent equal poor?
At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.Unless you care to actually challenge the point we all have made with something more than "Two East titles in 2 years" I'm done arguing this point.
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Butch Jones won the Big East two years in a row at Cincinnati. Clearly a sign he's a great coach.
And Mac actually inherited a pretty good D thanks to Muschamp's recruiting of that side of the ball.
Looking through some older threads on the recruiting page this morning and came across this. Redwood, what caused you to change positions?
What is wrong with Gator recuriting?
What is wrong with Gator recuriting?
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