Marines looking at the HK416/M27 to replace the M4s

Displaced Bama Fan · Apr 4, 2017

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...arines-even-more-lethal/ar-BBzk05f?li=BBnbfcN

A little pricier, but if more reliable/durable, it would be worth the switch. Here we go again though, relying on a foreign power to provide us our fire power.

bama2112 · Apr 4, 2017

It wont happen on Trumps watch. I am sure an American arms maker can design a reliable gun.

gman4tide · Apr 4, 2017

"There is little question that the M27 is lethal. It weighs about nine pounds, has a 30-round magazine, a sustained rate of fire of 40 rounds a minute and has single-shot accuracy of 800 yards." I may or may not have a civilian version of the m4 and I could prob get off more than 40 rounds a minute. smh Pretty sure if I had one, I could dial it in for "single shot accuracy of 800 yards". Again...smh. The only diff is the m27 has the full length rod like the ak instead of the gas operated system. Slightly more reliable, but I've not heard any combat infantry complaining about the m4 and it's variants.

crimsonaudio · Apr 4, 2017

Regarding he M4, it's kinda silly - they took a rifle designed with a 20" rifle with a specific type of ammunition and started messing with it. Made it shorter and didn't change the ammo, suddenly they weren't performing as well, so they had to alter the ammo. Then shortened it again, had to alter the ammo again. So now they've lost 25% of the range (800m for M16, 600m for M4) and lost almost 10% of the muzzle velocity (~3,200fps for M16, 2,900fops for the M4). Both rifles started life being considered unreliable due to poor field-service training, but have steadily improved.

And now they've decided to buy a new rifle, which will perform better than the M4, but with the same range and lower muzzle velocity than the M16. At a huge cost, no less.

Then of course, they'll screw up the design - again - and continue chasing their tails.

SMH

MattinBama · Apr 4, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
Then of course, they'll screw up the design - again - and continue chasing their tails.

Just saw the movie Pentagon Wars for the first time a few weeks back. Good stuff along these lines.

92tide · Apr 4, 2017

so i guess they are going to sell the surplus m4s to local leo's for rock bottom prices. payable in confiscated cash only.

81usaf92 · Apr 4, 2017

gman4tide said:
"There is little question that the M27 is lethal. It weighs about nine pounds, has a 30-round magazine, a sustained rate of fire of 40 rounds a minute and has single-shot accuracy of 800 yards." I may or may not have a civilian version of the m4 and I could prob get off more than 40 rounds a minute. smh Pretty sure if I had one, I could dial it in for "single shot accuracy of 800 yards". Again...smh. The only diff is the m27 has the full length rod like the ak instead of the gas operated system. Slightly more reliable, but I've not heard any combat infantry complaining about the m4 and it's variants.

Point target for an M4 is 500 ft, and area is 600.

gman4tide · Apr 4, 2017

But if I wanted, I could make an accurate shot at 800yds. Have friends with built colts that they shoot 500-1000 yards all the time. Just arguing the article. Same as with the 40rnd/min statement.

81usaf92 · Apr 4, 2017

gman4tide said:
But if I wanted, I could make an accurate shot at 800yds. Have friends with built colts that they shoot 500-1000 yards all the time. Just arguing the article. Same as with the 40rnd/min statement.

Just telling you what the army field Manual says.

crimsonaudio · Apr 4, 2017

gman4tide said:
But if I wanted, I could make an accurate shot at 800yds. Have friends with built colts that they shoot 500-1000 yards all the time. Just arguing the article. Same as with the 40rnd/min statement.

I can almost guarantee those are 20" barrels on custom builds and hand-loads. I won't believe without seeing with my own eyes that anyone can make accurate shots at 800 yards with a stock M4 (14.5" barrel) and NATO ammo.

day-day · Apr 4, 2017

81usaf92 said:
Point target for an M4 is 500 ft, and area is 600.

Are you sure the manual doesn't say 500 meters and 600 meters?

81usaf92 · Apr 4, 2017

day-day said:
Are you sure the manual doesn't say 500 meters and 600 meters?

* meters

81usaf92 · Apr 4, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
Regarding he M4, it's kinda silly - they took a rifle designed with a 20" rifle with a specific type of ammunition and started messing with it. Made it shorter and didn't change the ammo, suddenly they weren't performing as well, so they had to alter the ammo. Then shortened it again, had to alter the ammo again. So now they've lost 25% of the range (800m for M16, 600m for M4) and lost almost 10% of the muzzle velocity (~3,200fps for M16, 2,900fops for the M4). Both rifles started life being considered unreliable due to poor field-service training, but have steadily improved.

And now they've decided to buy a new rifle, which will perform better than the M4, but with the same range and lower muzzle velocity than the M16. At a huge cost, no less.

Then of course, they'll screw up the design - again - and continue chasing their tails.

SMH

The idea behind the M4 was CQC due to the collapsible buttstock. I always hated both the M16A2 and M4.

TIDE-HSV · Apr 5, 2017

I got a shock last night, when I picked up my M&P and the 40 round mag fell out on the floor. I stuck it back in and any slight tap causes it to fall out. I'm sure the first round would drop it. What a nasty surprise that would be. I'll have to look, but I remember its being a good brand, not just a knockoff...

crimsonaudio · Apr 5, 2017

30 round PMags FTW.

uafan4life · Apr 5, 2017

TIDE-HSV said:
I got a shock last night, when I picked up my M&P and the 40 round mag fell out on the floor. I stuck it back in and any slight tap causes it to fall out. I'm sure the first round would drop it. What a nasty surprise that would be. I'll have to look, but I remember its being a good brand, not just a knockoff...

I'm assuming the mag was fully loaded. If so, what happens if you take a round out of the mag?

I've seen mags before that will hold one-too-many rounds, causing the mag to not seat properly.

TIDE-HSV · Apr 5, 2017

uafan4life said:
I'm assuming the mag was fully loaded. If so, what happens if you take a round out of the mag?

I've seen mags before that will hold one-too-many rounds, causing the mag to not seat properly.

Well, didn't help. They were both P-mags, but the 30 didn't hold any better. Either bad mags or the S&W mag holder is bad...

crimsonaudio · Apr 5, 2017

Almost has to be a bad spring. The release is a pretty simple lever mechanism.

TIDE-HSV · Apr 5, 2017

crimsonaudio said:
Almost has to be a bad spring. The release is a pretty simple lever mechanism.

That's where I'm looking first. This is not an old problem...

TIDE-HSV · Apr 5, 2017

Well, the spring and catch seem to be strong and functioning perfectly. It seems to lie with the P-Mags. I have six P-Mags and none of the detents seem deep enough to catch securely. I thought I had a 10 which came with the gun which wasn't P-Mag, but it appears even that one was a P-Mag. I'll do a little looking on the AR-15 forums...

Marines looking at the HK416/M27 to replace the M4s

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