Friday Five: Tortured Fan Bases

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Notre Dame...Tennessee...Georgia....Michigan...A&M....Texas....(and then Auburn and LSU because they have to be compared to Bama).. Both A&M's and Texas's agony is eased some because the other isn't doing so well.
 

TIDE24

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In 26 years who has never been to ATL - Vandy/KY/A&M and our friends in Oxford. Their brothers just down HWY 45 have been, Mizzou, a school that has only been in the league a few years have been twice. How many preseason Heisman QBs have they had? How many times have we heard this is THE year, but it never is. Even when they do beat AL they still can't seem to make it. How rough life must be in Oxford?
 

selmaborntidefan

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Notre Dame...Tennessee...Georgia....Michigan...A&M....Texas....(and then Auburn and LSU because they have to be compared to Bama).. Both A&M's and Texas's agony is eased some because the other isn't doing so well.

I think what your post exemplifies is that context determines what makes a tortured fan base.

In other words, Auburn and LSU's "torture" is solely and completely related to their relationship/proximity to Alabama. Without Alabama, their torture doesn't exist - unlike, say, Nebraska.

Nebraska - in my view - has to be the worst because the realistic fans know that they will never again be what they once were. Yes...they MIGHT put a contender on the field and make the playoffs. But those years of perpetual 10-1 regular seasons and mention in the championship hunt are gone forever and they're never coming back. Guys like Tommie Frazier have no need to go spend four years in a cornfield just because that team plays more games on TV than anyone else - now that even the most mediocre teams are on TV every week.
 

Redwood Forrest

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I think what your post exemplifies is that context determines what makes a tortured fan base.

In other words, Auburn and LSU's "torture" is solely and completely related to their relationship/proximity to Alabama. Without Alabama, their torture doesn't exist - unlike, say, Nebraska.

Nebraska - in my view - has to be the worst because the realistic fans know that they will never again be what they once were. Yes...they MIGHT put a contender on the field and make the playoffs. But those years of perpetual 10-1 regular seasons and mention in the championship hunt are gone forever and they're never coming back. Guys like Tommie Frazier have no need to go spend four years in a cornfield just because that team plays more games on TV than anyone else - now that even the most mediocre teams are on TV every week.
I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head. Cable TV and the Georgia/Oklahoma lawsuit unlimiting TV appearances changed everything. The older crowd who remembers those days can never feel good about their team again. Nebraska would have to land a Saban or a Meyer to get back to their glory days and even then it would be an uphill struggle.
 

B1GTide

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IMO, it is simple to define a tortured fan base at the highest level - they are tortured because they come very close to achieving their goals consistently (whatever they may be), but fall just short, and often at the last minute. They are often "this close", but almost never get there.

The goals may vary by team. For Auburn, the goal may be beating Alabama. For Alabama, the goal would be winning a national championship. For Ohio State, the goal used to be beating Michigan and winning the Rose Bowl - it is now winning the national championship. We feel about Michigan the way that you feel about Auburn - we want to beat them, but mostly because we have to beat them to have a shot at our real goal. We are disappointed when we lose to Michigan, but the tortured losses are the ones that cost us championships.
 

TideMan09

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I think the top 2 are actually Penn State and Nebraska.

How would you like to be Nebraska and realize that you will never again be a big deal?


And what about Notre Dame?

This list is made by an idiot. I have a buddy who lives in Eugene. They don't really care. ATM? The Auburn of Texas?

Your top three are Penn State, Nebraska, and Notre Dame. I'll agree UGA is probably one of them. Miami doesn't HAVE a fan base.
I couldn't fathom being a Cornhusker Fan & the fall from grace that never ends for Nebraska Football..It's gotta to a bitter pill to swallow for a one time college football giant..
 

B1GTide

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I couldn't fathom being a Cornhusker Fan & the fall from grace that never ends for Nebraska Football..It's gotta to a bitter pill to swallow for a one time college football giant..
I agree, but in my mind they have become "long suffering" fans, not tortured fans. I mean, when was the last time that they were really close to winning anything of substance?
 

TideMan09

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I agree, but in my mind they have become "long suffering" fans, not tortured fans. I mean, when was the last time that they were really close to winning anything of substance?
I can agree with that BIGTide..I imagine it tortures the 'Husker Fans that lived through their run in the 70's, 80's 90's & not so much for the younger fans that didn't..
 

B1GTide

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I can agree with that BIGTide..I imagine it tortures the 'Husker Fans that lived through their run in the 70's, 80's 90's & not so much for the younger fans that didn't..
As a Braves fan I can tell you that I am no longer tortured by their losses. A few decades of mediocre play has reset my expectations.
 

BamaJama17

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I think what your post exemplifies is that context determines what makes a tortured fan base.

In other words, Auburn and LSU's "torture" is solely and completely related to their relationship/proximity to Alabama. Without Alabama, their torture doesn't exist - unlike, say, Nebraska.

Nebraska - in my view - has to be the worst because the realistic fans know that they will never again be what they once were. Yes...they MIGHT put a contender on the field and make the playoffs. But those years of perpetual 10-1 regular seasons and mention in the championship hunt are gone forever and they're never coming back. Guys like Tommie Frazier have no need to go spend four years in a cornfield just because that team plays more games on TV than anyone else - now that even the most mediocre teams are on TV every week.
Well Norman compared to Lincoln isn't exactly a destination spot either. Oklahoma (most of their players being from Texas) and Nebraska have to recruit nationally due to lack of in state HS FB talent. So how has OU been able to thrive while Nebraska has largely been in the wilderness in the 21st century??? To be honest they just need the right coach. IMO.
 

RTR91

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Well Norman compared to Lincoln isn't exactly a destination spot either. Oklahoma (most of their players being from Texas) and Nebraska have to recruit nationally due to lack of in state HS FB talent. So how has OU been able to thrive while Nebraska has largely been in the wilderness in the 21st century??? To be honest they just need the right coach. IMO.
Probably the fact the state of Oklahoma borders Texas while a player has to go through Oklahoma and Kansas to get to Nebraska.

And Norman is right outside OKC, so yes, it's much more of a destination than Lincoln, Nebraska.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Oklahoma (most of their players being from Texas) and Nebraska have to recruit nationally due to lack of in state HS FB talent. So how has OU been able to thrive while Nebraska has largely been in the wilderness in the 21st century??? To be honest they just need the right coach. IMO.
1) Oklahoma has been at it MUCH longer; Nebraska only got put on the map when Bob Devaney arrived.

2) It's MUCH colder in the winter in Nebraska and there's MUCH less to do.

3) Dallas is three hours south of Norman, an easy metro area to do stuff on the weekends. Not only is there not a comparable metro area close to Omaha...okay, Kansas City, about 2/5 the size of Dallas (and I'm not even including FW) and unlike Oklahoma to Texas in December, it's a total crapshoot of being able to actually GET there.

4) Oklahoma population: 3.91 million
Nebraska population: 1.8 million

This is what puts Nebraska closer to actually being Oklahoma STATE than Oklahoma.....because the Sooners not only have the same basic numbers if you split the state in half but they get their pick of who they want of the other half while the Pokes get whatever is left.

5) Border states - Oklahoma borders perhaps the most football-mad state in the USA that has a TON of people in it, Texas. Arkansas - another place you can play football almost year round - is to the East. Nebraska is bordered by Kansas (as is Oklahoma but the other states more than offset this), Missouri, Iowa, South Dakota, Colorado, and Wyoming.

How many NFL players can you name WITHOUT LOOKING who were from the state of South Dakota? I know of one, Adam Vinatieri. I look at the rather small list and only a couple of names even jump out at me - Jay Novacek and Norm Van Brocklin. I literally didn't know this until just now.

6) Bill Snyder's rise in Kansas affects Nebraska, too.

Back in the day, Nebraska pretty much had their pick of who they wanted in Missouri, all the way up to the Canadian border, and all the way down to the border of Oklahoma itself. Brook Berringer, the capable backup who took over when Tommie Frazier went out with a blood clot in 1994, was from Goodland, Kansas.

Let me put it this way: the rise of North Dakota State to a team of prominence affects Nebraska far more than a team like Oklahoma.

There are other reasons, but I'm at work and anyone not convinced by now would not be convinced of the difference if I gave another dozen reasons.

I DO think Nebraska with the right coach could win again - but they'll never win like they did during the Devaney-Osborne eras. Too much has changed and nobody wants to go spend a winter in a cornfield when they don't have to.
 

BamaJama17

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So how long before we add Tennessee?? They haven't won anything (besides 3 division titles) in the 21st-century yet. Could you say they are dangerous close to being in the same boat as Nebraska???
 

Redwood Forrest

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So how long before we add Tennessee?? They haven't won anything (besides 3 division titles) in the 21st-century yet. Could you say they are dangerous close to being in the same boat as Nebraska???
As long a Tennessee continues to finish seventh in recruiting the SEC ..... they can help Nebraska bail water.
 

Redwood Forrest

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Well Norman compared to Lincoln isn't exactly a destination spot either. Oklahoma (most of their players being from Texas) and Nebraska have to recruit nationally due to lack of in state HS FB talent. So how has OU been able to thrive while Nebraska has largely been in the wilderness in the 21st century??? To be honest they just need the right coach. IMO.
Good coaching has eluded the Huskers for many years. Nebraska has the fourth ranked recruiting class in the B1G year after year. In West Division look at these recruiting averages: Nebraska 27, Wisconsin 36, Northwestern 51, Iowa 53, Illinois 57, Minnesota 58 and Purdue 69. Yes, that is correct. Nebraska should win the west every year but instead they let Wisconsin and Iowa keep whipping them. That was why I was shocked at the Mike Riley hire. Nebraska has settled into mediocrity and seems to like it there.
 

BamaJama17

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Good coaching has eluded the Huskers for many years. Nebraska has the fourth ranked recruiting class in the B1G year after year. In West Division look at these recruiting averages: Nebraska 27, Wisconsin 36, Northwestern 51, Iowa 53, Illinois 57, Minnesota 58 and Purdue 69. Yes, that is correct. Nebraska should win the west every year but instead they let Wisconsin and Iowa keep whipping them. That was why I was shocked at the Mike Riley hire. Nebraska has settled into mediocrity and seems to like it there.
Back in the day say 20-30 years ago, Nebraska probably would have gotten (at least one of them) Marcus Mariota, RG3, and Johnny Manziel.
 

BamaJama17

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IMO, it is simple to define a tortured fan base at the highest level - they are tortured because they come very close to achieving their goals consistently (whatever they may be), but fall just short, and often at the last minute. They are often "this close", but almost never get there.

The goals may vary by team. For Auburn, the goal may be beating Alabama. For Alabama, the goal would be winning a national championship. For Ohio State, the goal used to be beating Michigan and winning the Rose Bowl - it is now winning the national championship. We feel about Michigan the way that you feel about Auburn - we want to beat them, but mostly because we have to beat them to have a shot at our real goal. We are disappointed when we lose to Michigan, but the tortured losses are the ones that cost us championships.
I sometimes think that for Michigan beating Ohio State is more important that them beating Sparty...
 

selmaborntidefan

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So how long before we add Tennessee?? They haven't won anything (besides 3 division titles) in the 21st-century yet. Could you say they are dangerous close to being in the same boat as Nebraska???
They were never in the same program status as the Big Red, but I do think they have a similar problem. A Tide lawyer grad I spoke with four years ago (I was hunting tickets for the Michigan game here in DFW) said the same thing. Basically, Tennessee has a very similar problem to Nebraska - they are bordered by more states than anyone else. Their state is a little less than 7 million people and about 1.3 million of those are in the Memphis area.

The RISE of Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Clemson, South Carolina, Auburn, and ESPECIALLY Alabama all at the same time limits their pickings. The better Georgia is, the harder it is for Tennessee.

I don't think Tennessee will ever be a big deal again, either. They might build a one-year wonder and win the SEC and maybe with a little luck the national title. But they're never going to be able to sustain their late 90s winning total, either. Go back and look - Tennessee's huge rise in the early days of Phil Fulmer happened concurrent with:

a) Alabama being on probation
b) Georgia fumbling through the Ray Goff-Jim Donnan regime
c) Ole Miss being on probation (1995-98)

Look at the Vols records:
1995 - 11-1
1996 - 10-2
1997 - 11-2
1998 - 13-0

Think about this for a moment to give you an idea - Tennessee was 45-5 in that four-year span. The 2009-12 Crimson Tide that won three national titles was 49-5. By record, Tennessee was almost as good as Alabama's crystal dynasty. Even being mentioned in the same breath with that group is astounding. Of course, the problem was that they couldn't beat Florida twice when it counted and they couldn't beat Nebraska.

And without Peyton Manning - does any of this actually happen? And if Ole Miss is NOT on probation, does anyone think Peyton doesn't go to Ole Miss, like Daddy and brother Eli did?

Most dynasties or 'teams that overachieve' can be viewed the same way. Tommy Tuberville's entire Auburn career can be summarized as benefiting from:

a) Alabama serving an even more severe probation
b) Miss State collapsing and winding up on probation

Auburn lost to MSU in 97-98-99-00. They lost to Alabama in 98-99 and should have lost in 97.

Without the sanctions - which to be clear were NOT Tuberville's fault - does anyone think he hangs around after taking a few Iron Bowl losses?

But back to the Vols.

I think that as long as Alabama AND Georgia (if they can get it going) do well, it is going to be VERY difficult for the Vols to rise up again. And for each team that does well at the same time, it's going to be even harder.

Their problem is similar to Nebraska's although they don't have as high to go back to their glory days - at least those anyone can actually remember.
 

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