Doctor dragged from plane after refusing to leave for United Employee who needed seat

DzynKingRTR · Apr 13, 2017

OreBama said:
I think the passenger asked for it. I don't think that it is a great thing that this happened, but when you play stupid games you win stupid prizes. I know that the person paid for his ticket, however, it's their plane. It would suck to have to deplane, but somebody had to and he lost the lottery.

Thanks for your input President and CEO of United Airlines

TIDE-HSV · Apr 13, 2017

mikes12 said:
The airline should have handled it better. I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

But when airport security tells you to get off the plane... You. Get. Off. The. Plane.

The time to argue your case is later. Besides, if you read the fine print on the tickets, it tells you this is a potential scenario and the airline reserves the right to do this.

And the crowd of onlookers have to be some of the biggest morons I've ever heard. Were they not there the previous 40 minutes when the airline was asking for volunteers and offrring vouchers and indicating this would happen?

No report I've seen even mentions airport security. It appears they went straight from airline employees to cops, actual LEOs...

RTR91 · Apr 13, 2017

cuda.1973 · Apr 13, 2017

CharminTide said:
It's worth noting that airlines are legally permitted to offer a voucher worth up to $1350 maximum (or 4x the ticket cost) to convince passengers to voluntarily give up their seat on an overbooked flight. By all reports, United decided to call police and drag this customer off the plane before reaching that maximum.

I've seen folks claiming that figure is the starting point. Hopefully, someone knows that answer.

Still not sure why they couldn't figure any of this out before all the passengers were boarded and seated. "Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

AV8N · Apr 13, 2017

CharminTide said:
It's worth noting that airlines are legally permitted to offer a voucher worth up to $1350 maximum (or 4x the ticket cost) to convince passengers to voluntarily give up their seat on an overbooked flight. By all reports, United decided to call police and drag this customer off the plane before reaching that maximum.

The $1350 max is for those involuntarily denied boarding, and is supposed to be cash or have cash value. The DOT leaves it up to airlines to determine their own policies for dealing with volunteers, usually offering vouchers instead of cash. Apparently this crew stopped making offers at $800 or $1000, and moved to involuntary. Which is weird, considering how airlines usually try to avoid IDB situations.

CharminTide · Apr 13, 2017

AV8N said:
The $1350 max is for those involuntarily denied boarding, and is supposed to be cash or have cash value. The DOT leaves it up to airlines to determine their own policies for dealing with volunteers, usually offering vouchers instead of cash. Apparently this crew stopped making offers at $800 or $1000, and moved to involuntary. Which is weird, considering how airlines usually try to avoid IDB situations.

Here's my issue. There are basically two types of people who fly on airplanes: (1) business travelers, who fly constantly and whose fares are often covered by their employer as a work expense, and (2) normal folks who fly only once or twice a year for vacation or special occasions. Thing is, vouchers are really crappy options for both types of people. Business flyers don't care because they're not paying for flights anyway. And people who only occasionally travel tend to have good reasons for being on that specific flight at that specific time; they also may not have any idea when that theoretical voucher could be used, especially considering blackout dates. Unfortunately, they're more likely to be kicked off if involuntary measures are taken.

If airlines offered cash rather than vouchers, they would never have a problem with this, and people wouldn't hate their overbooking practices quite so much. If other airlines are smart, they'll immediately change policy here and promote the heck out of it.

AV8N · Apr 13, 2017

Yeah, vouchers are like the store credit of air travel. And if you feel you've been mistreated by an airline, the last thing you want is an opportunity to relive that experience at a future date.
Make all denied boarding compensation cash-only, and I think airlines would magically find better ways to manage overbooking and operational challenges.

TIDE-HSV · Apr 13, 2017

RTR91 said:

So I can get my cut of the recovery for forwarding your case to a poor young attorney...

TIDE-HSV · Apr 13, 2017

AV8N said:
Yeah, vouchers are like the store credit of air travel. And if you feel you've been mistreated by an airline, the last thing you want is an opportunity to relive that experience at a future date.
Make all denied boarding compensation cash-only, and I think airlines would magically find better ways to manage overbooking and operational challenges.

Yes, cash and also making their IDB policies public instead of being something arcane. For example, I mean the CA exec who was just told someone "more important" showed up at the last minute...

Jon · Apr 13, 2017

CharminTide said:
Here's my issue. There are basically two types of people who fly on airplanes: (1) business travelers, who fly constantly and whose fares are often covered by their employer as a work expense, and (2) normal folks who fly only once or twice a year for vacation or special occasions. Thing is, vouchers are really crappy options for both types of people. Business flyers don't care because they're not paying for flights anyway. And people who only occasionally travel tend to have good reasons for being on that specific flight at that specific time; they also may not have any idea when that theoretical voucher could be used, especially considering blackout dates. Unfortunately, they're more likely to be kicked off if involuntary measures are taken.

If airlines offered cash rather than vouchers, they would never have a problem with this, and people wouldn't hate their overbooking practices quite so much. If other airlines are smart, they'll immediately change policy here and promote the heck out of it.

I hear JetBlue and Southwest already have no overbooking policies in place. I'm sure we will see ads for them shortly

as for your comment, I tend to agree. 90% of my air travel is work related and I am never in a position to take the offers. What drives me nuts is a few weeks back I had a meeting cancel for Tuesday morning and was flying out Monday night to make it. So I called Amex Travel to change my ticket from Monday to Tuesday as I no longer needed to be there early AM, Delta wanted nearly $600 for the change. It's not my money but I do have a limited travel budget so I flew out Monday on my original ticket instead. Want to guess what happened when I got to the airport? Yup Delta was offering vouchers as the flight was overbooked, the flight I would have happily changed from just a day prior. Since I had already explored the change and couldn't do it I scheduled some different meetings for Tuesday am and now couldn't take the offer. Frustrating

TIDE-HSV · Apr 13, 2017

Jon said:
I hear JetBlue and Southwest already have no overbooking policies in place. I'm sure we will see ads for them shortly

as for your comment, I tend to agree. 90% of my air travel is work related and I am never in a position to take the offers. What drives me nuts is a few weeks back I had a meeting cancel for Tuesday morning and was flying out Monday night to make it. So I called Amex Travel to change my ticket from Monday to Tuesday as I no longer needed to be there early AM, Delta wanted nearly $600 for the change. It's not my money but I do have a limited travel budget so I flew out Monday on my original ticket instead. Want to guess what happened when I got to the airport? Yup Delta was offering vouchers as the flight was overbooked, the flight I would have happily changed from just a day prior. Since I had already explored the change and couldn't do it I scheduled some different meetings for Tuesday am and now couldn't take the offer. Frustrating

Well, I got 25K FF miles from Delta for being marooned in Hartsfield for three days...

bama2112 · Apr 13, 2017

TIDE-HSV said:
Well, I got 25K FF miles from Delta for being marooned in Hartsfield for three days...

Call Aubarn and see if they will take miles for tickets to the Iron Bowl. Delta has changed Skymiles so much 25k miles will get you a one way trip to Shreveport on the 923pm flight one way... Save it for the Weedeater Bowl.

92tide · Apr 13, 2017

bama2112 said:
Call Aubarn and see if they will take miles for tickets to the Iron Bowl. Delta has changed Skymiles so much 25k miles will get you a one way trip to Shreveport on the 923pm flight one way... Save it for the Weedeater Bowl.

i have been diamond or platinum for the last 5 years and they tighten up the skymiles stuff every single year. we have stopped using delta for any international flights other than europe and south america so i probably wont keep my status much past this year. and if we can find a good alternative for europe and south america out of atlanta we will switch to that. delta's service and equipment on long haul flights seems to be getting worse every year, and their prices are getting (have been) ridiculous.

cuda.1973 · Apr 17, 2017

Looks like United has decided to start doing what should have been obvious.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/united-airlines-crew-can-no-longer-take-seats-from-boarded-passengers/

United Airlines made the announcement in a memo dated Friday and first published by TMZ. The airline said future crew members considered “must-ride” would be allocated seats at least an hour prior to departure, which would prevent crew members from being seated after passengers on a full flight already entered the airplane.

“This is so the denied boarding process in an oversell situation may be implemented in a gate or lobby area and not on board the aircraft,” United Airlines wrote in the memo. “No ‘must ride’ crew member can displace a customer who has boarded an aircraft.”

BTW, a lot of the Trumpettes are now calling TrumpBart "fake news". In any case, the usual disclaimer of anything from TrumpBart is implied.

crimsonaudio · Apr 17, 2017

If this is correct, United is going to pay even more than I initially thought...

The fact that the flight was not overbooked may seem trivial, or pedantic, but there is very important legal distinction to be made. There may not be a difference in how an airline (typically) responds when it needs additional seats, such as asking for volunteers who wish to give up their seat for a voucher or cash. But there is a legal difference between bumping a passenger in the instance of overselling a flight versus bumping a passenger to give priority to another passenger. Any thoughtful person can see the problem that arises if an airline were allowed to legally remove one fare-paying passenger to allow for another passenger it prefers.

Since the flight was not actually overbooked, but instead only fully booked, with the exact number of passengers as seats available, United Airlines had no legal right to force any passengers to give up their seats to prioritize others. What United did was give preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, which would have been a violation of 14 CFR 250.2a (if the flight were overbooked, as United had originally claimed). Since Dr. Dao was already seated, it was clear that his seat had already been "reserved" and "confirmed" to accommodate him specifically.

https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/th...-was-not-overbooked-and-why-that-matters.html

Elefantman · Apr 17, 2017

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is the fact that this was a Republic Airways flight doing business as United Express who is currently under chapter 11. My question to any lawyer types here is: Looking at United's contract of carriage, can they push this off to Republic Airways and let the doctor stand in line with all of the other creditors in bankruptcy court?

From Contract of carriage:

UA is responsible only for transportation of Passengers and Baggage provided by UA, which includes Codeshare services provided by UA on flights operated by a carrier other than UA. See Rule 18 regarding application of these rules to Codeshare services. When UA undertakes to issue a Ticket, check baggage, or make any other arrangements for transportation over the lines of any other carrier on an interline basis (whether or not such transportation is part of a through service), UA will act only as agent for the other carrier in these limited capacities, and will assume no responsibility for the acts or omissions of such other carrier, including but not limited to providing flight status information, delays and other acts or omissions that arise from their flight operations.

LINK

TrampLineman · Apr 17, 2017

Why United going to do Leslie Chow that way?:biggrin:

TIDE-HSV · Apr 17, 2017

Elefantman said:
One thing that I have not seen mentioned is the fact that this was a Republic Airways flight doing business as United Express who is currently under chapter 11. My question to any lawyer types here is: Looking at United's contract of carriage, can they push this off to Republic Airways and let the doctor stand in line with all of the other creditors in bankruptcy court?

From Contract of carriage:

LINK

That's something I've wondered about for years. When you book and ticket for a subcontractor, let them market off your name, etc., in other areas of business, you'd be estopped to deny agency. The commercial aviation industry, however, is peculiar and I don't normally follow litigation in that area. It's unlikely to arise in this case, because United, to the fury of the United Pilots Association, has assumed responsibility...

bama2112 · Apr 18, 2017

92tide said:
i have been diamond or platinum for the last 5 years and they tighten up the skymiles stuff every single year. we have stopped using delta for any international flights other than europe and south america so i probably wont keep my status much past this year. and if we can find a good alternative for europe and south america out of atlanta we will switch to that. delta's service and equipment on long haul flights seems to be getting worse every year, and their prices are getting (have been) ridiculous.

I have been flying for business since 1987, yes they did give triple miles for any flight you flew back then for a year. Rather the rehash how the airlines have changed. The last thing I would ever aspire to these days is to become a Platinum Delta FF. I now drive any trips that are less than 7 hours. Its just not worth the grief of driving down to Hartsfield, finding parking and the terminals are always packed. . I recall when the airlines did pay you in cash for getting bumped. You never had a lack of people taking cold hard cash. My 2 cents worth is that United raped what was a pretty decent airline in Continental. I was a One pass Gold member for 4 years straight. I never had to fly Continental to keep my miles,now I have to fly Untied once every 2 years not to loose the miles I earned on Continental. I avoid Untied at all cost.

Crimson1967 · Apr 18, 2017

I rarely fly so a voucher would be worthless to me. Even if I use it just to use it, I'd have the expense of a trip I really didn't want to take.

Which is probably why they give vouchers and not money. They hope you never use them. Even if you use it, sitting in an otherwise empty seat doesn't cost them near as much as cold hard cash.

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Doctor dragged from plane after refusing to leave for United Employee who needed seat

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