OL Discussion with Recruiting Ranking Talk Mixed In

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

B1GTide said:

No, because he has come out of nowhere after being a part of your program for 2 years. When this happens it usually means one of 2 things - he had some serious studs ahead of him, or he just wasn't performing well enough in practice to see the field. You have struggled at RG for 2 years in a row. Did he never get a shot at RG? Maybe that is the problem. Maybe he can only play tackle, and you have had very good tackles.

Still, I really believed that Leatherwood was going to be able to step in right away. I am shocked that Womack is better than him. Shocked. Maybe he really has improved that much.

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He didn't exactly come out of nowhere. Yes, year one was a redshirt, but that's not abnormal. We've had a lot of contributing OL take redshirts. Year two he was running with the 2s and was one of the first OTs to come in when we started subbing, getting PT in nine games. To your point, he was behind some really good tackles. Even with Robinson's propensity of lose focus and get false starts etc, he a sure fire round 1 pick. Williams might prove to be even better than robinson and, if I recall correctly, the highest graded OL last year. It's not surprising a lot of guys were stuck behind them.

I wouldn't think a guy 6'7" would be a good fit at OG. Those long arms that are great as an OT to keep the edge rushers at bay are not always as ideal for interior players due to the close quarters. Even in the NFL OGs are typically around 6'2" or 6'3" where tackles are a good 2-3 inches taller.

There is still a lot of practice left before things are set. Leatherwood might still be learning plays/terminology/whatever and be prime to make a move as he settles into the system. Or it could be that Womack, being from a small school, wasn't in a program that developed him as quickly as guys from bigger programs get in HS, and now that he's in an environment with better coaching, better strength and conditioning and better nutritional guidance, he's coming into his own.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

RTR91 said:

Leatherwood was with the second string today, so he appears to be making his move.

Womack was with the second string at times last year. If he was entering his fifth year, I would agree with you. He's entering his third year, and many OL take one year to develop/mature into a college OL.


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I would not be surprised at all if he ends up as a starter. In fact, I still kinda expect it. Saban rarely lets true freshman start from anywhere but the bottom(ish) of the depth chart so it should be expected that he started off 3rd string. It's still VERY early and I think we need to let at least spring play out before we get overly worried about anything. And even then, I always like to remind people how awful Blake Sims looked in spring the year before starting. How many times have we seen guys seemingly struggle or breakout in spring and then move the other direction by the time fall comes?

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

RollTide_HTTR said:

I would not be surprised at all if he ends up as a starter. In fact, I still kinda expect it. Saban rarely lets true freshman start from anywhere but the bottom(ish) of the depth chart so it should be expected that he started off 3rd string. It's still VERY early and I think we need to let at least spring play out before we get overly worried about anything. And even then, I always like to remind people how awful Blake Sims looked in spring the year before starting. How many times have we seen guys seemingly struggle or breakout in spring and then move the other direction by the time fall comes?

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September is a long ways in the future. I'm with you. Spring is fun to watch for the experiments, but I don't put too much stock in the lineups.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

Don't forget we signed 5 star OT Jedrick Wills and 4 star OT Kendall Randolph. Good chance both get a look at guard or maybe even red-shirt but the future is bright on the O-line. I think I had heard somewhere that Wills would get a shot at tackle first. Might be wrong on that but thought that's what I heard.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

KrAzY3 said:

The funny thing is I sometimes find myself a little bummed out when Alabama signs a 3 star or low 4 star, I'm so spoiled now... The truth though is that those guys still find a way onto the field. Bozeman is as good an example as any, not only was he a 3 star, but he was a greyshirt. He went on to become an important member of the team. It isn't and shouldn't just be about how high rated a guy is by the services, one has to assume Alabama offers someone because they see the potential.

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People look at star ratings all wrong. This is how a scout explained it me several years ago:

In very simple terms, a 5 star rating means the person evaluating them believes the player is ready to contribute at the D1 level immediately - from a physical, technique/coaching, game knowledge, etc. point of view.

4 stars mean it is "believed" they need a year to develop some aspect of their game (could be several areas, but believed they need a year to develop), 3 stars 2 years, and 2 stars 3 or more years.

So, if a 3 star player is a senior (3 to 4 years of development at the college level), their star rating when they graduated high school is no longer valid as they now have an improved skill set all the way around. This is why you see some teams who never really recruit well win consistently - they keep and develop players so by the time they hit the field they are no longer "3 stars"...

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

BamaFanOnBeach said:

People look at star ratings all wrong. This is how a scout explained it me several years ago:

In very simple terms, a 5 star rating means the person evaluating them believes the player is ready to contribute at the D1 level immediately - from a physical, technique/coaching, game knowledge, etc. point of view.

4 stars mean it is "believed" they need a year to develop some aspect of their game (could be several areas, but believed they need a year to develop), 3 stars 2 years, and 2 stars 3 or more years.

So, if a 3 star player is a senior (3 to 4 years of development at the college level), their star rating when they graduated high school is no longer valid as they now have an improved skill set all the way around. This is why you see some teams who never really recruit well win consistently - they keep and develop players so by the time they hit the field they are no longer "3 stars"...

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This is the way Forest Davis (recruiting guru in the 90's) explained it when he put out his annual magazine back in the day. It is fairly accurate but it does not always apply this way.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

RollTide_HTTR said:

I would not be surprised at all if he ends up as a starter. In fact, I still kinda expect it. Saban rarely lets true freshman start from anywhere but the bottom(ish) of the depth chart so it should be expected that he started off 3rd string. It's still VERY early and I think we need to let at least spring play out before we get overly worried about anything. And even then, I always like to remind people how awful Blake Sims looked in spring the year before starting. How many times have we seen guys seemingly struggle or breakout in spring and then move the other direction by the time fall comes?

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I agree with this. Coach Saban may play him in the fall but I think the spring is more about learning the play book getting acclimated and buying into the process. If a freshman can do that and is physically ready, he'll move up the depth chart and probably start. If Womack is better at this point, he may have to sit for a while. Several posters have said that a lot can happen between now and the fall. I totally trust CNS to play the best so I'm not concerned how many stars a guy comes in with.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

I think they are surprised by how quickly the youngsters are challenging Baker. Usually the CC players are expected to contribute immediately. I personally think CNS just wanted more bodies because Bama was thinnest at the OL depth wise. Well, that problem has been addressed and you have some young and hungry maulers who are busting rump to play. It's a great "problem" to have. I'm thinking the road grader mentality will be back in full force.


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Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

BamaFanOnBeach said:

People look at star ratings all wrong. This is how a scout explained it me several years ago:

In very simple terms, a 5 star rating means the person evaluating them believes the player is ready to contribute at the D1 level immediately - from a physical, technique/coaching, game knowledge, etc. point of view.

4 stars mean it is "believed" they need a year to develop some aspect of their game (could be several areas, but believed they need a year to develop), 3 stars 2 years, and 2 stars 3 or more years.

So, if a 3 star player is a senior (3 to 4 years of development at the college level), their star rating when they graduated high school is no longer valid as they now have an improved skill set all the way around. This is why you see some teams who never really recruit well win consistently - they keep and develop players so by the time they hit the field they are no longer "3 stars"...

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Dan Mullen does this every year.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

All of the competition on the OL is great to see. I feel like we have a good balance of returning starters, experienced depth and an infusion of young talent.

If the OL can be a strength of our team this year, then the sky is the limit.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

Nolan said:

All of the competition on the OL is great to see. I feel like we have a good balance of returning starters, experienced depth and an infusion of young talent.

If the OL can be a strength of our team this year, then the sky is the limit.

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It`s really an opportunity for CBK to have a signature, career defining moment if he can craft such a product this year, IMHO.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

bamacon said:

I think they are surprised by how quickly the youngsters are challenging Baker. Usually the CC players are expected to contribute immediately. I personally think CNS just wanted more bodies because Bama was thinnest at the OL depth wise. Well, that problem has been addressed and you have some young and hungry maulers who are busting rump to play. It's a great "problem" to have. I'm thinking the road grader mentality will be back in full force.


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Baker likely has a lot of work to do on his form. I've watched his JC film and he was a mauler. He just completely obliterated guys like they were middle schoolers. Yet his form was very, very bad and I don't know if that would work in the SEC. He was doing what we was taught as the other OT at his JC was doing the same thing, but his form was basically standing almost straight up with very little knee and hip bend at the snap. That will get him (and the QB) killed in the SEC against top tier DEs. He seems eager to compete so hopefully it's just a matter of time for him to make the adjustments if he's got the hip and knee flexibility to do it.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

BamaFanOnBeach said:

People look at star ratings all wrong. This is how a scout explained it me several years ago:

In very simple terms, a 5 star rating means the person evaluating them believes the player is ready to contribute at the D1 level immediately - from a physical, technique/coaching, game knowledge, etc. point of view.

4 stars mean it is "believed" they need a year to develop some aspect of their game (could be several areas, but believed they need a year to develop), 3 stars 2 years, and 2 stars 3 or more years.

So, if a 3 star player is a senior (3 to 4 years of development at the college level), their star rating when they graduated high school is no longer valid as they now have an improved skill set all the way around. This is why you see some teams who never really recruit well win consistently - they keep and develop players so by the time they hit the field they are no longer "3 stars"...

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So if I recruited 25 three stars and played them for three years I would have a starting team of FIVE stars their senior year? Doesn't make sense or I misunderstand. Or do they have to start for three years to become THREE stars?

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

I don't really know these things personally, but I think there is some ambiguity in these things. And what actually happens may be different than what the recruiting sites claim happens. Anyway, this from 247:

Players are first grouped qualitatively with a star rating, then given a numerical rating based on their future potential, and finally ranked according to these numerical ratings.

110 - 101 = Franchise Player. One of the best players to come along in years, if not decades. Odds of having a player in this category every year is slim. This prospect has "can’t miss" talent.

100 - 98 = Five-star prospect. One of the top 30 players in the nation. This player has excellent pro-potential and should emerge as one of the best in the country before the end of his career. There will be 32 prospects ranked in this range in every football class to mirror the first round of the NFL Draft.

97 - 90 = Four-star prospect. One of the top 300 players in the nation. This prospect will be an impact-player for his college team. He is an All-American candidate who is projected to play professionally.
89 - 80 = Three-star prospect. One of the top 10% players in the nation. This player will develop into a reliable starter for his college team and is among the best players in his region of the country. Many three-stars have significant pro potential.

79 - below = Two-star prospect. This player makes up the bulk of Division I rosters. He may have little pro-potential, but is likely to become a role player for his respective school.

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Future potential plays a big role in this description. So too does the probable development of the player. Immediate impact and moment in time is not even mentioned. On the other hand, future development is the hardest thing to perceive in comparison with present ability. The reality is probably that present ability is being used to predict future development. And to see the true future potential instead of the momentary fact of who is leading now in development, that takes a skilled talent evaluator. Most media driven information is about the now because they need interest now. Saban, I think, takes both present development and future potential into account, and probably it varies a bit by position which is more important. I bet he knows how to differentiate them, too.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

Agreed - the star system is a stack ranking system that breaks football players into tiers. Just like anything else, people can move up and down in that stack based on performance, but a 3 star doesn't become a 5 star because he has practiced for 3 years. He would have to really elevate his play to become one of the best .1 percent of his class because all of those 4 and 5 star players have also been practicing and playing for 3 years.

Thing is, the stack ranking happens on a slanted field. Not every player gets the same exposure, has the same level of coaching, and just as importantly, players have varied talent around them to help them look better (both on their team and on opposing teams). So they try to stack them accurately, but the system will always be flawed.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

In the words of Coach Paul W. Bryant, "you can't look at a rabbit and tell how fast he can run".

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

crimsonaudio said:

Meh, rankings are basically crap - I've literally seen players' ranking increased when high-profile teams (like Bama) offered a player.

There's only so much time in the day for guys to watch HS film and try to evaluate how good they are.

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I agree if you mean individual stars. But taken as a whole the Top 15 are the teams in the CFP Championship game, going back to year 2004 of the BCS. I could not find ranking data beyond 2000 which means the average ranking comes from 2004 and beyond.

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Practice Reports, Press Conference Updates, etc)

Thanks to all who explained the system. I think I get the 'stars' now. It is kind of like an "A" student compared to a "B" student. One may have a 99 average on test scores and another may have a 81 average, which shows a lot of difference. Or it could be 91 vs 89 which shows little difference.