Neil deGrasse Tyson on Science, Truth, and the Future of America

Jon · Apr 21, 2017

TideEngineer08 said:
I never said he was.

You're both missing the point I'm trying to make. The point is there are millions, whom you all need, that are not convinced. Whether it is because they are stupid or not is irrelevant. The relevant point is that you need them.

If you need them, how is the best way to get them? If you think it's NDT's way, then keep barreling forward. This doesn't just boil down to me saying that NDT is a meanie and doesn't play nice on the playground.

If I have adjusted my view of climate change over the past few years, and I have, it's most certainly not because of blowhards like NDT.

Problem is that others have tried the nice way for generations (actually centuries, you can go back to Socrates arguments about the problems of uninformed democracies) and it hasn't worked either. People are retreating to their corners and covering their ears. Playing nice hasn't worked. I appreciate NDT for putting on the gloves and fighting

92tide · Apr 21, 2017

TideEngineer08 said:
I never said he was.

You're both missing the point I'm trying to make. The point is there are millions, whom you all need, that are not convinced. Whether it is because they are stupid or not is irrelevant. The relevant point is that you need them.

If you need them, how is the best way to get them? If you think it's NDT's way, then keep barreling forward. This doesn't just boil down to me saying that NDT is a meanie and doesn't play nice on the playground.

If I have adjusted my view of climate change over the past few years, and I have, it's most certainly not because of blowhards like NDT.

if those millions of people think ndt is a blowhard, i don't think there is much of a chance of reaching them

Jon · Apr 21, 2017

92tide said:
that's impressive. it would make a good poster for tomorrow.

yeah, except many of the lefties marching will get really squeemish with quite a bit of it. Especially the quakery and paranormal where the left falls as hard as the right f not a bit harder. Can't tell you how many times I've been infuriated with smart left leaning "science lovers" that tell me the benefits of acupuncture or homeopathy while railing on others for denying global warming.

92tide · Apr 21, 2017

Jon said:
yeah, except many of the lefties marching will get really squeemish with quite a bit of it. Especially the quakery and paranormal where the left falls as hard as the right f not a bit harder. Can't tell you how many times I've been infuriated with smart left leaning "science lovers" that tell me the benefits of acupuncture or homeopathy while railing on others for denying global warming.

just dont get them started on ear candles

Jon · Apr 21, 2017

92tide said:
just dont get them started on ear candles

a friend of my wife is going down to the march tomorrow. I may join them, haven't decided because of traffic issues and the need to be in the City for another event in the evening. She is a huge astrology fan. It astounds me but I am not allowed to say anything when she claims my clumsiness is due to "mercury being in retrograde"

TideEngineer08 · Apr 21, 2017

Jon said:
Problem is that others have tried the nice way for generations (actually centuries, you can go back to Socrates arguments about the problems of uninformed democracies) and it hasn't worked either. People are retreating to their corners and covering their ears. Playing nice hasn't worked. I appreciate NDT for putting on the gloves and fighting

I can't argue with you there. But NDT is accomplishing nothing but getting pats on the back from folks already convinced.

92tide said:
if those millions of people think ndt is a blowhard, i don't think there is much of a chance of reaching them

NDT never will.

92tide · Apr 21, 2017

Jon said:
a friend of my wife is going down to the march tomorrow. I may join them, haven't decided because of traffic issues and the need to be in the City for another event in the evening. She is a huge astrology fan. It astounds me but I am not allowed to say anything when she claims my clumsiness is due to "mercury being in retrograde"

i thought about it, but due to a couple of cancellations, this weekend turns out to be one of the very few where our family has zero plans, so we are just going to chill and get caught up on some yard work.

CajunCrimson · Apr 21, 2017

Jon said:
Problem is that others have tried the nice way for generations (actually centuries, you can go back to Socrates arguments about the problems of uninformed democracies) and it hasn't worked either. People are retreating to their corners and covering their ears. Playing nice hasn't worked. I appreciate NDT for putting on the gloves and fighting

Bamaro · Apr 21, 2017

Some people just have difficulty when science conflicts with their ideology.

CajunCrimson · Apr 21, 2017

Bamaro said:
Some people just have difficulty when science conflicts with their ideology.

I think it's deeper than that. Just look at Food Science.....

Coffee bad, Coffee good
Wine bad, Wine good
Eggs bad, Eggs Good, Eggs Bad, Eggs Good
Butter bad, butter good....
etc....

It's a more simple example -- but most "normal" Americans start to doubt science, not because of their religious beliefs, or their ideology....but moreso because science changes so frequently - that they just would prefer to wait and see if the evidence builds to a point to where there is no other answer.

Intl.Aperture · Apr 21, 2017

CharminTide said:
This. Giving fact and BS equivalent consideration only legitimizes the BS. At a societal level, that isn't healthy.

Jon said:
If someone tells me that the earth is 6000 years old calling that claim baseless isn't douchey it's honest. The schadenfreude isn't the only thing to enjoy it is also the end of being "respectful" to garbage. We are only going to move forward once we all accept evidence based reality. It is good that he won't tolerate the crap

Who's talking about consideration? I'm talking only about methods of persuasion.
If you think the best way to convince people is the way it's currently being done, by all means, continue. BTW, this is a problem that both sides suffer from. In fact, Jon, your National Review article that I very much enjoyed points to this fact. "We prize our ideological heroes on their knifework..." That's true in large sections of both ideologies. But is it EFFECTIVE and EFFICIENT in brining people over to your way of thinking? I maintain that a confrontational style keeps opposition in their camp which lengthens the amount of time it takes for your cause to make progress. All the while people grow more frustrated and resentful of those "morons" on the the other side.
Obviously, we've really moved on from NDT and are just talking about the way that the Left and the Right communicate.
You may come off as a bold and an unflinching arbiter of truth to those who agree with you, but do you think others here are changing their minds based off that style? Lot of people don't seem to be changing their minds quickly on either side. The cold truth is that simply having the facts isn't good enough. Maybe it should be. But the way in which the facts or the data are presented is just as large and maybe even a larger factor in people's decision making process.

Jon · Apr 21, 2017

CajunCrimson said:
I think it's deeper than that. Just look at Food Science.....

Coffee bad, Coffee good
Wine bad, Wine good
Eggs bad, Eggs Good, Eggs Bad, Eggs Good
Butter bad, butter good....
etc....

It's a more simple example -- but most "normal" Americans start to doubt science, not because of their religious beliefs, or their ideology....but moreso because science changes so frequently - that they just would prefer to wait and see if the evidence builds to a point to where there is no other answer.

what you are describing is poor reporting of science, not a problem with science itself.

a scientist does a study which suggests some benefit to coffee and a reporter runs off with a headline "new study shows that coffee has possible positive effects on cancer" a week later another study shows coffee is detrimental to the heart and good moring America is screaming "don't drink that coffee" and both things can be true but that isn't the fault of science that is the fault of the media and a population that doesn't know how to think. This is exactly what NDT is trying to fix

relevant XKCD

CajunCrimson · Apr 21, 2017

Jon said:
what you are describing is poor reporting of science, not a problem with science itself.

a scientist does a study which suggests some benefit to coffee and a reporter runs off with a headline "new study shows that coffee has possible positive effects on cancer" a week later another study shows coffee is detrimental to the heart and good moring America is screaming "don't drink that coffee" and both things can be true but that isn't the fault of science that is the fault of the media and a population that doesn't know how to think. This is exactly what NDT is trying to fix

relevant XKCD

But the average citizen doesn't make the distinction. I agree with you that it's not the same. But, when you get 95% of your news from TV News or Facebook -- everything that comes out has the same level of expertise to most....

I think that's part of the issue

cuda.1973 · Apr 21, 2017

OK, I have no idea who this guy is, what this guy is, what he believes or why. (It is a free country, last time I looked.)

However, the guys over at Daily Wire have taken exception to his rantings. And for good reason.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15613/watch-neil-degrasse-tyson-releases-most-important-ben-shapiro

I have no idea how he thinks he can "dumb down" science, to the level where this garbage passes for brilliance. It would be like me coming on here, and ranting for days, that McDonalds is food. And good food, at that.

Yes, it is food, and if you want to "poison" yourself with it, then go for it. Just expect me to swallow it.

Amazing how all of these kook explanations of "science" are nothing more than political rantings, of the fascist left.

BTW, where it that "coming Ice Age", that was predicted, back at the first "Earth Day"? Still waiting on that one. (Yes, it was hailed as science, and brilliant science, at that. If you were not around back then, it is not my problem if you are, and chose to remain ignorant, of that.)

There, I said it, deal with it. I'm off the make a $.

Jon · Apr 21, 2017

cuda.1973 said:
OK, I have no idea who this guy is, what this guy is, what he believes or why. (It is a free country, last time I looked.)

However, the guys over at Daily Wire have taken exception to his rantings. And for good reason.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15613/watch-neil-degrasse-tyson-releases-most-important-ben-shapiro

I have no idea how he thinks he can "dumb down" science, to the level where this garbage passes for brilliance. It would be like me coming on here, and ranting for days, that McDonalds is food. And good food, at that.

Yes, it is food, and if you want to "poison" yourself with it, then go for it. Just expect me to swallow it.

Amazing how all of these kook explanations of "science" are nothing more than political rantings, of the fascist left.

BTW, where it that "coming Ice Age", that was predicted, back at the first "Earth Day"? Still waiting on that one. (Yes, it was hailed as science, and brilliant science, at that. If you were not around back then, it is not my problem if you are, and chose to remain ignorant, of that.)

There, I said it, deal with it. I'm off the make a $.

yeah, he never critiques the left

CharminTide · Apr 21, 2017

cuda.1973 said:
However, the guys over at Daily Wire have taken exception to his rantings. And for good reason.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15613/watch-neil-degrasse-tyson-releases-most-important-ben-shapiro

While Shapiro occasionally makes decent and thoughtful points, this is not one of those times.

81usaf92 · Apr 21, 2017

I think the problem is there are two sides that believe they are right and the other side is dangerous. Both are trying to win the political arena. The two sides are those who are deeply devoted to religion and those deeply invested in scientific advancement. Both can help humanity in their own ways, but neither side ever really wants to come to that compromise. Religion holds more power in the USA, and thats what NTD is getting at. Him and someone like Mike Pence would probably never seek a compromise, and neither would ever admit the dangers of their side. We all know the dangers that religion can present, but it is rarely discussed of what scientific discovery can.

This is from 1818

“Learn from me, if not by my precepts, at least by my example, how dangerous is the acquirement of knowledge, and how much happier that man is who believes his native town to be his world, than he who aspires to become greater than his nature will allow.”

and this is from Oppenheimer a century and a few decades later coming to the same conclusion after he created a monster

We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita; Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and, to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another
.

Power and politics screw everything up

AUDub · Apr 21, 2017

Jon said:
yeah, he never critiques the left

Bringing up anti-vax and alt-med in Maher's (a guy that is hugely anti-vax and has flirted with germ theory denialism) show is brave.

Jon · Apr 21, 2017

AUDub said:
Bringing up anti-vax and alt-med in Maher's (a guy that is hugely anti-vax and has flirted with germ theory denialism) show is brave.

Maher is a bit of a loon. He is also anti-gmo. Many lefties (and righties) have these same issues. I hate when the left claims to be the "party of Science" no you are the party that has accepted some science but not all.

MattinBama · Apr 21, 2017

cuda.1973 said:
OK, I have no idea who this guy is, what this guy is, what he believes or why. (It is a free country, last time I looked.)

However, the guys over at Daily Wire have taken exception to his rantings. And for good reason.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15613/watch-neil-degrasse-tyson-releases-most-important-ben-shapiro

I have no idea how he thinks he can "dumb down" science, to the level where this garbage passes for brilliance. It would be like me coming on here, and ranting for days, that McDonalds is food. And good food, at that.

Yes, it is food, and if you want to "poison" yourself with it, then go for it. Just expect me to swallow it.

Amazing how all of these kook explanations of "science" are nothing more than political rantings, of the fascist left.

BTW, where it that "coming Ice Age", that was predicted, back at the first "Earth Day"? Still waiting on that one. (Yes, it was hailed as science, and brilliant science, at that. If you were not around back then, it is not my problem if you are, and chose to remain ignorant, of that.)

There, I said it, deal with it. I'm off the make a $.

How this has yet to make an appearance blows my mind.

Neil deGrasse Tyson on Science, Truth, and the Future of America

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