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  1. #79
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxTider View Post
    All I know is that we were a one dimensional team last year against good defenses, and to award Hurts the job prior to an extensive "in game" competition that affords Tua several games to acclimate to the college game would be idiotic.

    Why the hurry?

    Any advantage to settleing who the starter is quickly is likely to be overshadowed by the hearbreak of seeing our best QB prospect since Joe Willie Namath transfer.
    Hey, I'm with you in my excitement about Tua!!! But that's a little bit of a leap considering Jalen is a known commodity having witnessed him play 15 games. We know his strengths and weaknesses and some of the unmeasurable things like coolness and intangibles that don't show up on stat sheets except in the won/loss column.

    Before Tua can be proclaimed the greatest since Joe Willy he'll have to actually play in some real games and prove it on the field. I too hope he has that opportunity while wearing a Bama jersey (at whatever point that might be). He's already good (I think everyone agrees) but "greatness" is only proven one way (win games/championships).

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  3. #80

    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxTider View Post
    All I know is that we were a one dimensional team last year against good defenses, and to award Hurts the job prior to an extensive "in game" competition that affords Tua several games to acclimate to the college game would be idiotic.

    Why the hurry?

    Any advantage to settleing who the starter is quickly is likely to be overshadowed by the hearbreak of seeing our best QB prospect since Joe Willie Namath transfer.
    I'm not in the Jalen can do no wrong camp but come on...

  4. #81
    BamaNation Hall of Fame B1GTide's Avatar
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxTider View Post
    Any advantage to settleing who the starter is quickly is likely to be overshadowed by the hearbreak of seeing our best QB prospect since Joe Willie Namath transfer.
    I get your concern - 3rd downs were a disaster against the stronger teams at the end of your season and he was a bad passer past the 10 yard mark. But let's not pretend that the Spring game didn't happen. Jalen looked like a seasoned veteran on every pass that he threw in that game. He never looked that good last year, even against the weaker defenses on your schedule, and this was against your defense.

    Yes, Jalen still struggled on 3rd down, but that was not his passing. He struggled because he was taking too long to make a decision. He has to improve here. But Tua looked just as bad on 3rd down in the second half, when he was playing against your #1 defense. So, IMO, Tua may be a better passer in some ways, but his game strengths are the same as Jalen's game strengths and his weakness is the same as Jalen's weakness - quick decision making when under pressure. And here is where the pendulum swings decidedly in Jalen's favor. On third down, Jalen has the ability to run the run portion of the RPO to perfection.

    Another point - in the spring game you didn't run a single receiver screen or sweep. Those plays were your bread and butter last year, but they had a consequence of keeping the entire defense close to the LOS on every snap. The vertical passing game displayed by Hurts in the spring game totally changes that. Defenses are going to have to respect the passing game, which is going to open up lanes for your RBs. LBs and safeties are going to have to play straight up. No more 8 or 9 man in the box defenses like you saw in those late games last year. And, goodness, if your RBs have running lanes I just don't know how any defense can stop you.

    I could be totally wrong, but I expect Alabama's offense to score at will this year.
    Last edited by B1GTide; April 25th, 2017 at 10:20 AM.

  5. #82

    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Here's the main hang-up I have with the situation. A true dual threat quarterback can be nearly unstoppable in college. We're talking about guys putting up 50 TDs and 5,000 yards. That's what Tebow did, that's what Jackson did last year for example. If that sounds like a long shot to you, Jalen had a total of 3,734 yards and 36 TDs, as a true freshman. So, we're not dreaming when we say if he improves, if he gets better, he can become a truly dominant, Heisman trophy candidate type of quarterback.

    People are kind of hung up on how he finished (which was a combination of tough defenses and a horrible coordinator situation), but it seems like how well he actually did is being lost somewhere in there. It was the best true freshman season of all time, statistically speaking. That's not idle speculation, that's just what it was. He also did that against the toughest schedule in all of the FBS. He didn't get to feast on weaker competition, but when he did you saw what he was capable of (the Miss. State game for example). Now, the trick is people are kind of losing sight of the dominant dual threat quarterback thing, and talking about things more in the sense of the best attributes as a passer. One is more important in college, one is more important in the pros. The issue of course is we spent years wishing for a guy like Hurts, and not that we have him, it seems some wish more to have a more pure passer.

    The problem is you almost never get both. You get Tebow, who dominated college football, or you get Tom Brady, who you know, won a couple bowl games. I'll tell you right now, I'd choose Tebow over Tom Brady, in college. Barnett was a better passer, Barnett is still a better pro prospect than Hurts. He was more experienced than Hurts, and he was still his backup who transferred out because he knew he couldn't reclaim the job. Is Tua a better passer? Sure, is he potentially a fantastic pro and college quarterback? Absolutely, but until I see Hurts regress (and he certainly didn't look like he had in A-Day) I know what he's done and I know what he has the potential to do. I'm big on Tua to though, that's why I really wish there was some way for him to redshirt...
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  6. #83
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxTider View Post
    All I know is that we were a one dimensional team last year against good defenses,
    One play turns out different and not a soul says this. It wouldn't be any less true but nobody would be saying this.

    Besides - he's no Jay Barker...1992 version

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxTider View Post
    and to award Hurts the job prior to an extensive "in game" competition that affords Tua several games to acclimate to the college game would be idiotic.
    Several games?

    OK.....WHO should START the opener against Florida State and why?
    Last edited by selmaborntidefan; April 25th, 2017 at 10:31 AM.
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  7. #84
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    Here's the main hang-up I have with the situation. A true dual threat quarterback can be nearly unstoppable in college. We're talking about guys putting up 50 TDs and 5,000 yards. That's what Tebow did, that's what Jackson did last year for example. If that sounds like a long shot to you, Jalen had a total of 3,734 yards and 36 TDs, as a true freshman. So, we're not dreaming when we say if he improves, if he gets better, he can become a truly dominant, Heisman trophy candidate type of quarterback.

    People are kind of hung up on how he finished (which was a combination of tough defenses and a horrible coordinator situation), but it seems like how well he actually did is being lost somewhere in there. It was the best true freshman season of all time, statistically speaking. That's not idle speculation, that's just what it was. He also did that against the toughest schedule in all of the FBS. He didn't get to feast on weaker competition, but when he did you saw what he was capable of (the Miss. State game for example). Now, the trick is people are kind of losing sight of the dominant dual threat quarterback thing, and talking about things more in the sense of the best attributes as a passer. One is more important in college, one is more important in the pros. The issue of course is we spent years wishing for a guy like Hurts, and not that we have him, it seems some wish more to have a more pure passer.

    The problem is you almost never get both. You get Tebow, who dominated college football, or you get Tom Brady, who you know, won a couple bowl games. I'll tell you right now, I'd choose Tebow over Tom Brady, in college. Barnett was a better passer, Barnett is still a better pro prospect than Hurts. He was more experienced than Hurts, and he was still his backup who transferred out because he knew he couldn't reclaim the job. Is Tua a better passer? Sure, is he potentially a fantastic pro and college quarterback? Absolutely, but until I see Hurts regress (and he certainly didn't look like he had in A-Day) I know what he's done and I know what he has the potential to do. I'm big on Tua to though, that's why I really wish there was some way for him to redshirt...
    Nothing here I could disagree with.

    The one wild card right now is we really don't know how much of the read option philosophy will be a part of Daboll's playbook. I know it's CNS's, in reality, but he hired Daboll for a reason.

    Krazy, I think you're right to point out it would almost be crazy to not employ some aspects of RPOs in Daboll's offensive approach in JH's running ability, but how much it shows up is a legitimate question that A-day did nothing to answer.

    If Kiffin were still around, we'd know, but this is part of the mystery of determining how JH's and TT's strengths will be used going forward.

    This is why I could see both of them being used in some capacity in real game situations.

  8. #85

    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    Here's the main hang-up I have with the situation. A true dual threat quarterback can be nearly unstoppable in college. We're talking about guys putting up 50 TDs and 5,000 yards. That's what Tebow did, that's what Jackson did last year for example. If that sounds like a long shot to you, Jalen had a total of 3,734 yards and 36 TDs, as a true freshman. So, we're not dreaming when we say if he improves, if he gets better, he can become a truly dominant, Heisman trophy candidate type of quarterback.

    People are kind of hung up on how he finished (which was a combination of tough defenses and a horrible coordinator situation), but it seems like how well he actually did is being lost somewhere in there. It was the best true freshman season of all time, statistically speaking. That's not idle speculation, that's just what it was. He also did that against the toughest schedule in all of the FBS. He didn't get to feast on weaker competition, but when he did you saw what he was capable of (the Miss. State game for example). Now, the trick is people are kind of losing sight of the dominant dual threat quarterback thing, and talking about things more in the sense of the best attributes as a passer. One is more important in college, one is more important in the pros. The issue of course is we spent years wishing for a guy like Hurts, and not that we have him, it seems some wish more to have a more pure passer.

    The problem is you almost never get both. You get Tebow, who dominated college football, or you get Tom Brady, who you know, won a couple bowl games. I'll tell you right now, I'd choose Tebow over Tom Brady, in college. Barnett was a better passer, Barnett is still a better pro prospect than Hurts. He was more experienced than Hurts, and he was still his backup who transferred out because he knew he couldn't reclaim the job. Is Tua a better passer? Sure, is he potentially a fantastic pro and college quarterback? Absolutely, but until I see Hurts regress (and he certainly didn't look like he had in A-Day) I know what he's done and I know what he has the potential to do. I'm big on Tua to though, that's why I really wish there was some way for him to redshirt...
    So, I agree with your overall point but I think this is also somewhat misleading. Put a good pro prospect QB on an elite team and then they will win NC(Winston is a good example). The difference between college and the NFL is that an NFL team can only go as far as its QB but a college team can have enough elite players at other positions that they can cover the flaw of an avg QB. But, I do agree that Hurts can be an absolutely dominate QB with pretty mild improvement in his passing game. Hurts doesn't need to be a 1st rounder to win a championship or Heisman. It just sucks that we may have a QB in Tua that might be even more special as a QB.

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    Nothing here I could disagree with.

    The one wild card right now is we really don't know how much of the read option philosophy will be a part of Daboll's playbook. I know it's CNS's, in reality, but he hired Daboll for a reason.

    Krazy, I think you're right to point out it would almost be crazy to not employ some aspects of RPOs in Daboll's offensive approach in JH's running ability, but how much it shows up is a legitimate question that A-day did nothing to answer.

    If Kiffin were still around, we'd know, but this is part of the mystery of determining how JH's and TT's strengths will be used going forward.

    This is why I could see both of them being used in some capacity in real game situations.
    The way I seed the RPO stuff is if literally everyone who watched just one Alabama game last year could see how big of a threat Hurts is running the ball then I'm pretty sure Saban realized this too. I also assume Daboll could also see this. So, if I'm right and two respected football minds saw this incredibly obvious skill set that Hurts has then I think its safe to assume it will be used a good bit. They aren't going to force Jalen to throw from the pocket every play that would be ridiculous and idiotic and I have it on good authority that Saban is neither of those things.

  9. #86
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by RollTide_HTTR View Post
    So, I agree with your overall point but I think this is also somewhat misleading. Put a good pro prospect QB on an elite team and then they will win NC(Winston is a good example). The difference between college and the NFL is that an NFL team can only go as far as its QB but a college team can have enough elite players at other positions that they can cover the flaw of an avg QB. But, I do agree that Hurts can be an absolutely dominate QB with pretty mild improvement in his passing game. Hurts doesn't need to be a 1st rounder to win a championship or Heisman. It just sucks that we may have a QB in Tua that might be even more special as a QB.

    The way I seed the RPO stuff is if literally everyone who watched just one Alabama game last year could see how big of a threat Hurts is running the ball then I'm pretty sure Saban realized this too. I also assume Daboll could also see this. So, if I'm right and two respected football minds saw this incredibly obvious skill set that Hurts has then I think its safe to assume it will be used a good bit. They aren't going to force Jalen to throw from the pocket every play that would be ridiculous and idiotic and I have it on good authority that Saban is neither of those things.
    There's no doubt Daboll and CNS already know the value of Jalen's running ability. The question is how much do they value an equally potent downfield passing game? That was the missing ingredient last year, as we all know, and that seems to be the reason Daboll was hired to bring back some elements of a prostyle attack.

  10. #87
    BamaNation All-American Nolan's Avatar
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by LA4Bama View Post
    Crimson white didn't say anyone was not high on Tua, and he didn't say anything about Jalen that hasn't been said many times before. All he said was most people give Tua little chance (context clearly shows he means chance to overtake Jalen for the starter job), which is obviously a true statement. In this thread almost nobody thinks that is likely. No need to read more into a comment than it really says. If CW thinks Tua has a better chance to win the job than most other people, then that's his opinion. No reason to misrepresent what he said and then bash a strawman. Especially doing this at a new person, it makes them not want to come back.
    If you considered my reply harsh, or bashing like GrayTide jokingly said, then you must REALLY not like a lot of the others posts on Tidefans.

    Also, I like identifying logical fallacies as much as the next guy, but a strawman? It's a conversation about football.

    I'll clarify - I think Tua is AWESOME, Jalen is AWESOME, wish like heck we could RS Tua to create class separation and expect Jalen to have a HUGE year.

  11. #88
    BamaNation All-SEC Intl.Aperture's Avatar
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    All I can say is that I'm amazed at how much Jalen improved from January 10th till now. He looked much more polished as a passer in just 4 months - now he has another 5 till the season starts and then he has the ability to continue developing during the season. If he was able make the jump he did in this short period of time I can't wait to see him in September.

    Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.

    He knows the game but you can't teach game speed. He's not acclimated to it yet and Jalen is. And it would take a LOT of reps to get him to a place where having linebackers who are twice as tall as the ones he faced in high-school, and likely as fast as many of his former receivers, are barreling downfield at him. That takes acclimation.
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  12. #89
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Intl.Aperture View Post
    All I can say is that I'm amazed at how much Jalen improved from January 10th till now. He looked much more polished as a passer in just 4 months - now he has another 5 till the season starts and then he has the ability to continue developing during the season. If he was able make the jump he did in this short period of time I can't wait to see him in September.

    Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.

    He knows the game but you can't teach game speed. He's not acclimated to it yet and Jalen is. And it would take a LOT of reps to get him to a place where having linebackers who are twice as tall as the ones he faced in high-school, and likely as fast as many of his former receivers, are barreling downfield at him. That takes acclimation.
    I don't recall anybody saying they think Tua literally beats out JH to win the starting job, especially by FSU. I think the mystery is:

    1. Will Tua redshirt?
    2. If not, how much will he play as a backup?
    3. Or, might we employ some variation of a two qb system if his talents are undeniably insane to the staff?

  13. #90
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    I don't recall anybody saying they think Tua literally beats out JH to win the starting job, especially by FSU. I think the mystery is:

    1. Will Tua redshirt?
    2. If not, how much will he play as a backup?
    3. Or, might we employ some variation of a two qb system if his talents are undeniably insane to the staff?
    I've seen a few people say they wouldn't be surprised if Tua is the starter by the end of the season. I disagree with that strongly.
    “And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man.”
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  14. #91
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    Re: Should Tua be redshirted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Intl.Aperture View Post
    Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.
    This is the point people need to look at. Huge difference in 1's vs. 1's than 2's vs 2's. Saban even said it after the game. Tua is going to be an amazing QB but you can't really compare his performance to Jalen's in this game since it was basically apples vs oranges.

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