Should Tua be redshirted?

B1GTide

TideFans Legend
Apr 13, 2012
45,499
46,842
187
Unfortunately for us, the same thing that happened to Cam will happen to Tua.
Cam's worst case was 2 years remaining after Tebow left since he hurt an ankle and had to redshirt his sophomore season (2008). Same boat as Tua, only 1 year separation between him and Tebow, but he got the second year with the injury redshirt.

Had he not lost 2008 to an injury, you might be correct. He might have left when Tebow decided to stay for his senior season. He would have still had 3 years to play 2.

But since he lost 2008 to an injury, I believe that he would have stayed at Florida.
 

Crimson White

1st Team
Jun 17, 2014
475
1
37
Hurts is an amazing dual threat QB. Tua is not.
We don't really know how good Tua may or may not be running the ball, but we do know that last year Hurts wasn't consistent passing the ball downfield, so he wasn't really an amazing dual threat QB. That aside, there are the issues of reading defenses, checking down to secondary receivers, and turning the ball over. These things also need improvement before you call a guy an amazing QB. In a live game situation, Tua may or may not be better. We don't know.
 
Last edited:

Crimson White

1st Team
Jun 17, 2014
475
1
37
Must say I appreciate the QB experts that have decided to join us after watching A-Day.
If you're talking about me, you may note that I joined about 3 years ago. Actually, I was a member of this site as far back as 1998, when it was BamaNation. Not sure, though, what any of that has to do with a discussion about quarterbacks, or any other topic, for that matter.

So you're upset that I think Tua may be as good or even better for this team as Hurts might be? You're upset that I think Hurts was inconsistent throwing the ball last year, or wasn't good reading defenses? What?
 
Last edited:

BamaMoon

Hall of Fame
Apr 1, 2004
20,931
15,930
282
Boone, NC
We don't really know how good Tua may or may not be running the ball, but we do know that last year Hurts wasn't consistent passing the ball downfield last year, so he wasn't really an amazing dual threat QB. That aside, there are the issues of reading defenses, checking down to secondary receivers, and turning the ball over. These things also need improvement before you call a guy an amazing QB. In a live game situation, Tua may or may not be better. We don't know.
I know it's unpopular with some here, but you make a fair point.

We do have more evidence about JH than we do about Tua (and that's part of what is fueling this fire), but it's a fair point to say that neither have proven they are truly a great dual threat qb just yet.
 

BamaMoon

Hall of Fame
Apr 1, 2004
20,931
15,930
282
Boone, NC
I'm not trying to litigate either side of this. I do not understand why we get so touchy over these things.

NONE of us know how this may turn out because we don't know how much/quickly either will progress.

Right now, all we truly know is: Jalen is #1 on the depth chart and Tua is a solid #2.
 

RTR91

Super Moderator
Nov 23, 2007
39,407
6
0
Prattville
If you're talking about me, you may note that I joined about 3 years ago. Actually, I was a member of this site as far back as 1998, when it was BamaNation. Not sure, though, what any of that has to do with a discussion about quarterbacks, or any other topic, for that matter.

So you're upset that I think Tua may be as good or even better for this team as Hurts might be? You're upset that I think Hurts was inconsistent throwing the ball last year, or wasn't good reading defenses? What?
A fourth of your posts in your two years of being a member are about the topic, so you're welcome to believe my comment was about you.

I know it's unpopular with some here, but you make a fair point.

We do have more evidence about JH than we do about Tua (and that's part of what is fueling this fire), but it's a fair point to say that neither have proven they are truly a great dual threat qb just yet.
But we do have proof Jalen is. The stats show it. It's been mentioned over and over again that he had the best season statistically-wise of any true freshman QB. That says plenty about what the kid can do.

I'm not trying to litigate either side of this. I do not understand why we get so touchy over these things.
Personally, I just get tired of the "Oh look at this shiny new toy... Let's see what it can do!!" when we have a toy that was more than great last year.

NONE of us know how this may turn out because we don't know how much/quickly either will progress.

Right now, all we truly know is: Jalen is #1 on the depth chart and Tua is a solid #2.
This is what we all agree on.

The notion that Tua needs to get an opportunity to play meaningful snaps like there's an undecided QB situation is the issue. Are we going to do that every year with a new QB? That's what some are acting like should happen.

I'm not sure why some fear Tua is going to transfer right away if he's not given that chance. He might transfer even if he is given that chance. We saw it last year with BB8 bolting after four games.
 

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,765
6,532
187
Quite honestly, the way some of you think, if the equivalent of the Tom Brady of today were currently a frosh at Bama, he simply couldn't see field for the next three years.

Straight talk about Jalen ...

He's a dynamic, talented player who's poise and ability to run put him in the starting spot over a very mediocre field of candidates last year.

That's it. It's as simple as that.

But any objective observer could see that, had we switched QBs with Clemson last year, we would have won that game by a minimum of 35 points. Minimum.

Point being, there is a vast improvement in the QB position possible over what we saw last year.

And that is why, in my book, there is no justification for believing that Hurts has "won" the position in any real sense.

He has to improve on his passing, big league.
We have to be able to be balanced and capable of a downfield threat against top completion this year, or else, we have to conclude that he may not be the answer.

He was a frosh. He did very well for a frosh. But he has not wrapped up that position for the remainder of his career at Bama.

I know. Coach Saban knows it. And Tua knows it.
Hypothetical...

Imagine Tua red shirts, or let's say he sits for a year and transfers. And then he goes on to start somewhere else ... goes through some growing pains, but is ultimately the first player taken in the draft and a Hall of Famer. Meanwhile, Hurts improves, has a good career, is drafted in the 3rd round, and has a nice hand full of years as an NFL backup.

Now the question is, was it wiser to stick with experience, or should potential have been weighed more heavily?

Mohammed Ali wasn't ready to fight Floyd Patterson at 17. But if your a trainer and decide to work with Joe Schom heavyweight over Ali, ignoring his physical gifts and potential in favor of Joe's experience, you've really screwed up.

And it's a self fufilling prophecy. The guy that gets the playing time will always have the advantage.
He gets all of the meaningful game experience. He gets most of the practice reps and coaching.

And why? Because he is more ready right now? He's better for what ... three games ? Four games ?
And what about the 40 more games spanning the next three years.

It's not all about experience. Some of it is about release and accuracy and arm strength and yes ... potential.

Sometimes it's a trade off, and playing the guy who is the most ready now, and neglecting the guy with all the potential in the world... or asking him to give up most of his college career and "wait is turn" can turn out to be a monumental error.
Keep the guy involved. Give him some meaningful playing time. Withhold judgement. That's all I'm saying.

Don't get sucked into the argument that the QB spot has to be 100% settled and one guy has to have a vote of confidence before we can have any efficiency as an offense. That's overblown.

If they were both freshmen and we had only the A Day game to go on, what would we have right now?

We would have a QB competition.

So what is the relevance of last year?

Hurts may very well clearly end up being the best option. But I need to see more before I am convinced.
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said this

Random thought I had. Under Saban we have had the best player in CFB at every position at least once with the exception of QB. We have actually had a player drafted 1st or 2nd at every position with the exception of QB and OLB (see below). I think this has caused us to be a little spoiled. We expect the BEST at every position. And frankly I think it might sting some fans a little that despite all our success we haven't had a Watson or Cam type of player.

WR - Cooper
RB - Richardson
C - Kelly
OG - Warmack
OT - Smith

DL - Dareus
ILB - McClain
CB - Milliner
S - Barron
But, to address your points. I don't think anyone is saying that Jalen deserves an infinitely long leash and can do no wrong. However, if you have a returning starter at QB who played really well especially for a TF then he has to be the assumed starter. I think you seriously underrate what QB competitions can do to teams especially when you have an established starter. Tua should be the #2 QB and if he shows that he is clearly better than Jalen he would deserve a shot at starting. However, A day, scrimmages and practice all limit one of Jalen's biggest strengths (his running ability). What is the point in giving Tua equal or even meaningful reps with the 1s or playing time when really what you are doing is limiting the number of snaps your very young (Jalen is only 18 still) QB gets. He needs to improve. By splitting reps you could end up stunting the growth of both QBs. I also think people fail to realize how different it really is with a lefty QB. You can't switch back and forth between a righty and a lefty without some serious consequences IMO.

To be honest I don't really understand what you are advocating for specifically. I think basically you want to give Tua a shot but what would that entail? Does he play in the opener? I also think your hypothetical is mostly useless. We know Tua is good for a TF but besides that we know nothing about him. We haven't seen him play in a live game or even play against the 1s for more than a few snaps. Now, maybe he has done something in practice to justify getting first team reps but based on A-Day alone I saw nothing that implies he deserves a chance to start at this point.

We are also ignoring how incredibly well Jalen looked throwing the deep ball during A-day.


We don't really know how good Tua may or may not be running the ball, but we do know that last year Hurts wasn't consistent passing the ball downfield, so he wasn't really an amazing dual threat QB. That aside, there are the issues of reading defenses, checking down to secondary receivers, and turning the ball over. These things also need improvement before you call a guy an amazing QB. In a live game situation, Tua may or may not be better. We don't know.

I know it's unpopular with some here, but you make a fair point.

We do have more evidence about JH than we do about Tua (and that's part of what is fueling this fire), but it's a fair point to say that neither have proven they are truly a great dual threat qb just yet.
Look, we don't know how good of a runner Tua is. This is true. What we DO know is that Jalen is faster (40 times), stronger (lifting #s), and more well built. Tua doesn't have the same physical skill set that Jalen has and I think its fair to say it is extraordinarily unlikely that Tua is even half the runner Jalen is.
 
Last edited:

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
10,615
4,540
187
44
kraizy.art
First, I should say a lot of this disagreement isn't with every sentiment some posters are expressing, but rather with a few specific things. I think part of what forums try to do is find common ground, and to that end a couple posters who said a few things I might have disagreed with earlier, now we seem more aligned. It isn't really a matter of how high you think Tua's ceiling is, or how high you think Hurts ceiling is, or that sort of thing, but just how realistic and fair you are willing to be on the subject.

I can't really have a fair debate without admitting that Hurts needs to improve his passing game, or that Tua might very well be a future star. But, the thing that seems to derail these conversations, and to have slowly united many of the posters is that there are still some outlier sentiments that seem to kind of blow the conversations up. It prevents a more nuanced discussion and even if that's not what the posters intend, it makes it seem like they just don't want Hurts to start and regardless of the consequences they want to see Tua start. That might not even be what they intend, but the over the top statements just throw the whole thing off.

To give an example, early on we'd see something reasonable, something reasonable, then something really disparaging about Hurts. If I took exception, it wasn't because they said something reasonable of course, but that they kind of took a "low blow" on Hurts as I saw it. But, even if you're making a good argument, if you throw out there that Tua is the best prospect since Joe Namath, that he's somehow a new classification of prospect that puts other 4 or 5 stars helplessly behind, or simply that Hurts somehow didn't really earn the starting job, those things are going to just scuttle the whole thing.

I said a long time ago that we'll know more after 4 games. Alabama opens up with a brutal game, but then has 3 manageable opponents in a row. These are not the easiest cupcakes possible, but it will be the easiest three game stretch that Hurts has had. After that, then I think we can have a more meaningful conversation. If he's improved as a passer, the numbers will reveal that. Also, unless something changes, we can expect to see Tua take a fair amount of snaps. We'll know a lot more then.

Finally, to how great Hurts is or isn't. A simple way of looking at things is that Hurts is already in the upper half of Alabama Saban quarterbacks in terms of production. He's already surpassed GMac, JPW, and Coker, by a wide margin. He basically raised the bar for what a true freshman QB can do and is an award winning QB. How good Tua can be, does nothing to diminish what Hurts already is.
 
Last edited:

Crimson White

1st Team
Jun 17, 2014
475
1
37
A fourth of your posts in your two years of being a member are about the topic, so you're welcome to believe my comment was about you.

But we do have proof Jalen is. The stats show it. It's been mentioned over and over again that he had the best season statistically-wise of any true freshman QB. That says plenty about what the kid can do.

Personally, I just get tired of the "Oh look at this shiny new toy... Let's see what it can do!!" when we have a toy that was more than great last year


The notion that Tua needs to get an opportunity to play meaningful snaps like there's an undecided QB situation is the issue. Are we going to do that every year with a new QB? That's what some are acting like should happen.

.
ehheh. I am welcome to believe the comment was about me. That's a good one. Why not just say "yeah. It's about you"? For the record, if it's important, I posted at another board for 16 years, up until last summer, and finally, the fact that rival fans (seemed evident to some of us anyway) were allowed to keep stirring the pot prompted me to quit paying to post there. Though I haven't been posting much since joining here, I read the board here sometimes. This thread interested me because it seemed that Tua was given little chance to actually be the starting qb, so I joined the discussion about it. No huge deal, imo.

As for the "stats" that prove Hurts was so good, a great lot of those "completions" and yards were from jet sweeps and screens. There is a reason that Kiffin kept calling those plays. We had great playmakers at the receiver position, and that was a way to get them involved in the game. It's a shame, really, that we couldn't take advantage of the best receiving corps (arguably) ever at Alabama. It may be a reason Stewart cut out for the nfl. A good year this season and he might have made way more money.

The point, and it's very simple, is that Hurts was very inconsistent passing downfield, and reading defenses. Tua may or may not be better in a live game. It isn't at all complex. Since you like statistics, I'm going to link for you a chart, at the bottom of this post. You should also note that the chart was even before the playoffs, so it's actually worse than what you see. Note the completion percentages of 30% under pressure and 33% downfield. Those aren't the numbers of an amazing qb, as another poster said it. Yes, he was a freshman, and he may improve, but the other young man may actually be better, which leads us to the point that this isn't a typical year regarding the quarterbacks. We have a guy that, as noted, was inconsistent last year and lacking in some areas that a quarterback needs to do and we also have a guy that is absolutely not typical of the average freshman quarterback. Dilfer and Kiffin, among others, have said he was a special qb. So considering these things, why would some Alabama fans not be excited about the kid? How is that a bad thing?

I'm an Alabama fan. I don't much care about the number or the name on the jersey. I'm not sure why discussion about the competition at the qb position is different than at any other position, running back for an example. We can discuss that without getting upset, so we can probably discuss the qb situation likewise. It's not going to make a difference, anyway, in how it all shakes out.

 

CrimsonProf

Hall of Fame
Dec 30, 2006
5,716
69
67
Birmingham, Alabama
I'm guessing some of you are still ignoring that Lane Kiffin was an absolute train wreck as OC on a personal level.

Let's assume that Daboll isn't reenaacting Lane's Wild Ride all year and see how it goes before we assume that Hurts can't pass.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Crimson White

1st Team
Jun 17, 2014
475
1
37
Kiffin set offensive records at Alabama in 2014, with a career utility man at QB. The next season he took another career backup who became the 2nd leading passer for a single season. 2 SEC titles, 2 playoffs, and 1 national title in those 2 years. Not bad, but no, he can't throw the ball for the qb, so I'm not sure how it's his fault for the inconsistent passing game downfield.

RankPlayerYardsYear
1Blake Sims3,4872014
2Jake Coker3,110[SUP][20][/SUP]2015
3A. J. McCarron3,0632013
 
Last edited:

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,765
6,532
187
ehheh. I am welcome to believe the comment was about me. That's a good one. Why not just say "yeah. It's about you"? For the record, if it's important, I posted at another board for 16 years, up until last summer, and finally, the fact that rival fans (seemed evident to some of us anyway) were allowed to keep stirring the pot prompted me to quit paying to post there. Though I haven't been posting much since joining here, I read the board here sometimes. This thread interested me because it seemed that Tua was given little chance to actually be the starting qb, so I joined the discussion about it. No huge deal, imo.

As for the "stats" that prove Hurts was so good, a great lot of those "completions" and yards were from jet sweeps and screens. There is a reason that Kiffin kept calling those plays. We had great playmakers at the receiver position, and that was a way to get them involved in the game. It's a shame, really, that we couldn't take advantage of the best receiving corps (arguably) ever at Alabama. It may be a reason Stewart cut out for the nfl. A good year this season and he might have made way more money.

The point, and it's very simple, is that Hurts was very inconsistent passing downfield, and reading defenses. Tua may or may not be better in a live game. It isn't at all complex. Since you like statistics, I'm going to link for you a chart, at the bottom of this post. You should also note that the chart was even before the playoffs, so it's actually worse than what you see. Note the completion percentages of 30% under pressure and 33% downfield. Those aren't the numbers of an amazing qb, as another poster said it. Yes, he was a freshman, and he may improve, but the other young man may actually be better, which leads us to the point that this isn't a typical year regarding the quarterbacks. We have a guy that, as noted, was inconsistent last year and lacking in some areas that a quarterback needs to do and we also have a guy that is absolutely not typical of the average freshman quarterback. Dilfer and Kiffin, among others, have said he was a special qb. So considering these things, why would some Alabama fans not be excited about the kid? How is that a bad thing?

I'm an Alabama fan. I don't much care about the number or the name on the jersey. I'm not sure why discussion about the competition at the qb position is different than at any other position, running back for an example. We can discuss that without getting upset, so we can probably discuss the qb situation likewise. It's not going to make a difference, anyway, in how it all shakes out.

I 100% agree that Hurts passing last year was inconsistent and he really does need to improve this year if we want to make the playoffs again. Our D has a ton of talent but we can't expect them to bail us out like they did a ton of times last year. Let's not forget that while Jalen helped the comeback against Ole Miss we also had 2 defensive TDs in the 2nd half. I think most here can agree with this. I also agree that Tua seems to be special for a true freshman and could very possibly grow into a very special QB. However, my question for anyone that wants Tua to have a shot at starting is what does giving Tua a shot entail? I think more specifics would help us all understand one another better.

As for what is different about the QB position? Literally everything. It's the only position besides OL where only one player plays that position. QBs are also almost required to be the leader of the offense. If there is a coach in the world who could manage a Tua vs Jalen QB competition it would be Saban but I think you would be hard pressed to find people who think it would be good for the team or the individual QBs.

Honestly, my biggest concern about having a QB competition is the possibility of stunting both QBs growth. Jalen needs all the passing reps he can get in practice if he is going to continue to improve and taking those from him would hurt him. Meanwhile, I don't want to throw another true freshman into the fire. Look at what happened to Jalen last year. Because he was preparing for each opponent week to week he didn't have a whole lot of time to improve the basics and really focus on getting the playbook down. He seemed to regress as a passer later in the season as well. If you put Tua against a big time team like FSU before he is ready I would be worried it could lead him to learn bad habits. Jalen's demeanor was incredible last year. Do you remember his first play? He jumped right back up like nothing had happened. Tua may be able to do that too but why put that risk/pressure on a true freshman when you don't have to. I think its possible we have 2 great college QBs (ignore the NFL for now) and I would be very careful about how you bring them along. I am much more along the line of thinking that next year will be the Tua's real chance to push to start.
 
Last edited:

RollTide_HTTR

Hall of Fame
Feb 22, 2017
8,765
6,532
187
Kiffin set offensive records at Alabama in 2014, with a career utility man at QB. The next season he took another career backup who became the 2nd leading passer for a single season. 2 SEC titles, 2 playoffs, and 1 national title in those 2 years. Not bad, but no, he can't throw the ball for the qb, so I'm not sure how it's his fault for the inconsistent passing game downfield.

RankPlayerYardsYear
1Blake Sims3,4872014
2Jake Coker3,110[SUP][20][/SUP]2015
3A. J. McCarron3,0632013
Kiffin was a great OC when he was focused. Based on comments from Saban and other reporting I get the feeling he was not very focused toward the end. That's what people are talking about when the mention Kiffin hurting Hurts play at the end of the year.
 

Wilson Monroe

1st Team
Jul 19, 2016
517
0
0
I could be in the vast minority, but I think Tua should redshirt. After the pressure was dialed up in the Aday game his feet came unsettled. He looked more like a freshman than a polished junior he appeared to be in the first half.

I would also hope that there is an opportunity for competition next fall. Give him a little time with the speed of the college game. Tua probably has a much higher ceiling, but CNS is a win now coach. He has said on multiple occasions that he will do what is necessary to win now because the seniors deserve that.
 

dvldog

Hall of Fame
Sep 20, 2005
6,569
346
107
72
Virginia
Let's assume that Daboll isn't reenaacting Lane's Wild Ride all year and see how it goes before we assume that Hurts can't pass.
Yes, waiting until after the fact should improve our ability to guess more accurately. :)
 

RTR91

Super Moderator
Nov 23, 2007
39,407
6
0
Prattville
Kiffin set offensive records at Alabama in 2014, with a career utility man at QB. The next season he took another career backup who became the 2nd leading passer for a single season. 2 SEC titles, 2 playoffs, and 1 national title in those 2 years. Not bad, but no, he can't throw the ball for the qb, so I'm not sure how it's his fault for the inconsistent passing game downfield.

RankPlayerYardsYear
1Blake Sims3,4872014
2Jake Coker3,110[SUP][20][/SUP]2015
3A. J. McCarron3,0632013
Yet, Saban says it was the coaches' fault for not properly developing Jalen last year. It's been mentioned numerous times, but Jalen was fine until Lane went off the deep end. So not only was he facing tougher competition, he had major problems with his position coach and coordinator.
 

Crimson White

1st Team
Jun 17, 2014
475
1
37
In retrospect and review, it's kind of funny, at least to me, that I created this account in part due to so much controversy, on the other board, about the starting qb in 2014. A major difference, though, is that a lot of folks then were predicting doom and gloom due to what some perceived (and remember what I said about rival fans?) as a total lack of talent at the qb position. There were also a lot of people that expected Kiffin to miserably fail.

Oh well. C'est la vie.

:)

Anyway, it will be interesting to watch next season. Should be fun.
 
Last edited:

New Posts

Latest threads

TideFans.shop : 2024 Madness!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.