Should Tua be redshirted?

B1GTide

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Any advantage to settleing who the starter is quickly is likely to be overshadowed by the hearbreak of seeing our best QB prospect since Joe Willie Namath transfer.
I get your concern - 3rd downs were a disaster against the stronger teams at the end of your season and he was a bad passer past the 10 yard mark. But let's not pretend that the Spring game didn't happen. Jalen looked like a seasoned veteran on every pass that he threw in that game. He never looked that good last year, even against the weaker defenses on your schedule, and this was against your defense.

Yes, Jalen still struggled on 3rd down, but that was not his passing. He struggled because he was taking too long to make a decision. He has to improve here. But Tua looked just as bad on 3rd down in the second half, when he was playing against your #1 defense. So, IMO, Tua may be a better passer in some ways, but his game strengths are the same as Jalen's game strengths and his weakness is the same as Jalen's weakness - quick decision making when under pressure. And here is where the pendulum swings decidedly in Jalen's favor. On third down, Jalen has the ability to run the run portion of the RPO to perfection.

Another point - in the spring game you didn't run a single receiver screen or sweep. Those plays were your bread and butter last year, but they had a consequence of keeping the entire defense close to the LOS on every snap. The vertical passing game displayed by Hurts in the spring game totally changes that. Defenses are going to have to respect the passing game, which is going to open up lanes for your RBs. LBs and safeties are going to have to play straight up. No more 8 or 9 man in the box defenses like you saw in those late games last year. And, goodness, if your RBs have running lanes I just don't know how any defense can stop you.

I could be totally wrong, but I expect Alabama's offense to score at will this year.
 
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KrAzY3

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Here's the main hang-up I have with the situation. A true dual threat quarterback can be nearly unstoppable in college. We're talking about guys putting up 50 TDs and 5,000 yards. That's what Tebow did, that's what Jackson did last year for example. If that sounds like a long shot to you, Jalen had a total of 3,734 yards and 36 TDs, as a true freshman. So, we're not dreaming when we say if he improves, if he gets better, he can become a truly dominant, Heisman trophy candidate type of quarterback.

People are kind of hung up on how he finished (which was a combination of tough defenses and a horrible coordinator situation), but it seems like how well he actually did is being lost somewhere in there. It was the best true freshman season of all time, statistically speaking. That's not idle speculation, that's just what it was. He also did that against the toughest schedule in all of the FBS. He didn't get to feast on weaker competition, but when he did you saw what he was capable of (the Miss. State game for example). Now, the trick is people are kind of losing sight of the dominant dual threat quarterback thing, and talking about things more in the sense of the best attributes as a passer. One is more important in college, one is more important in the pros. The issue of course is we spent years wishing for a guy like Hurts, and not that we have him, it seems some wish more to have a more pure passer.

The problem is you almost never get both. You get Tebow, who dominated college football, or you get Tom Brady, who you know, won a couple bowl games. I'll tell you right now, I'd choose Tebow over Tom Brady, in college. Barnett was a better passer, Barnett is still a better pro prospect than Hurts. He was more experienced than Hurts, and he was still his backup who transferred out because he knew he couldn't reclaim the job. Is Tua a better passer? Sure, is he potentially a fantastic pro and college quarterback? Absolutely, but until I see Hurts regress (and he certainly didn't look like he had in A-Day) I know what he's done and I know what he has the potential to do. I'm big on Tua to though, that's why I really wish there was some way for him to redshirt...
 

selmaborntidefan

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All I know is that we were a one dimensional team last year against good defenses,
One play turns out different and not a soul says this. It wouldn't be any less true but nobody would be saying this.

Besides - he's no Jay Barker...1992 version

and to award Hurts the job prior to an extensive "in game" competition that affords Tua several games to acclimate to the college game would be idiotic.
Several games?

OK.....WHO should START the opener against Florida State and why?
 
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BamaMoon

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Here's the main hang-up I have with the situation. A true dual threat quarterback can be nearly unstoppable in college. We're talking about guys putting up 50 TDs and 5,000 yards. That's what Tebow did, that's what Jackson did last year for example. If that sounds like a long shot to you, Jalen had a total of 3,734 yards and 36 TDs, as a true freshman. So, we're not dreaming when we say if he improves, if he gets better, he can become a truly dominant, Heisman trophy candidate type of quarterback.

People are kind of hung up on how he finished (which was a combination of tough defenses and a horrible coordinator situation), but it seems like how well he actually did is being lost somewhere in there. It was the best true freshman season of all time, statistically speaking. That's not idle speculation, that's just what it was. He also did that against the toughest schedule in all of the FBS. He didn't get to feast on weaker competition, but when he did you saw what he was capable of (the Miss. State game for example). Now, the trick is people are kind of losing sight of the dominant dual threat quarterback thing, and talking about things more in the sense of the best attributes as a passer. One is more important in college, one is more important in the pros. The issue of course is we spent years wishing for a guy like Hurts, and not that we have him, it seems some wish more to have a more pure passer.

The problem is you almost never get both. You get Tebow, who dominated college football, or you get Tom Brady, who you know, won a couple bowl games. I'll tell you right now, I'd choose Tebow over Tom Brady, in college. Barnett was a better passer, Barnett is still a better pro prospect than Hurts. He was more experienced than Hurts, and he was still his backup who transferred out because he knew he couldn't reclaim the job. Is Tua a better passer? Sure, is he potentially a fantastic pro and college quarterback? Absolutely, but until I see Hurts regress (and he certainly didn't look like he had in A-Day) I know what he's done and I know what he has the potential to do. I'm big on Tua to though, that's why I really wish there was some way for him to redshirt...
Nothing here I could disagree with.

The one wild card right now is we really don't know how much of the read option philosophy will be a part of Daboll's playbook. I know it's CNS's, in reality, but he hired Daboll for a reason.

Krazy, I think you're right to point out it would almost be crazy to not employ some aspects of RPOs in Daboll's offensive approach in JH's running ability, but how much it shows up is a legitimate question that A-day did nothing to answer.

If Kiffin were still around, we'd know, but this is part of the mystery of determining how JH's and TT's strengths will be used going forward.

This is why I could see both of them being used in some capacity in real game situations.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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Here's the main hang-up I have with the situation. A true dual threat quarterback can be nearly unstoppable in college. We're talking about guys putting up 50 TDs and 5,000 yards. That's what Tebow did, that's what Jackson did last year for example. If that sounds like a long shot to you, Jalen had a total of 3,734 yards and 36 TDs, as a true freshman. So, we're not dreaming when we say if he improves, if he gets better, he can become a truly dominant, Heisman trophy candidate type of quarterback.

People are kind of hung up on how he finished (which was a combination of tough defenses and a horrible coordinator situation), but it seems like how well he actually did is being lost somewhere in there. It was the best true freshman season of all time, statistically speaking. That's not idle speculation, that's just what it was. He also did that against the toughest schedule in all of the FBS. He didn't get to feast on weaker competition, but when he did you saw what he was capable of (the Miss. State game for example). Now, the trick is people are kind of losing sight of the dominant dual threat quarterback thing, and talking about things more in the sense of the best attributes as a passer. One is more important in college, one is more important in the pros. The issue of course is we spent years wishing for a guy like Hurts, and not that we have him, it seems some wish more to have a more pure passer.

The problem is you almost never get both. You get Tebow, who dominated college football, or you get Tom Brady, who you know, won a couple bowl games. I'll tell you right now, I'd choose Tebow over Tom Brady, in college. Barnett was a better passer, Barnett is still a better pro prospect than Hurts. He was more experienced than Hurts, and he was still his backup who transferred out because he knew he couldn't reclaim the job. Is Tua a better passer? Sure, is he potentially a fantastic pro and college quarterback? Absolutely, but until I see Hurts regress (and he certainly didn't look like he had in A-Day) I know what he's done and I know what he has the potential to do. I'm big on Tua to though, that's why I really wish there was some way for him to redshirt...
So, I agree with your overall point but I think this is also somewhat misleading. Put a good pro prospect QB on an elite team and then they will win NC(Winston is a good example). The difference between college and the NFL is that an NFL team can only go as far as its QB but a college team can have enough elite players at other positions that they can cover the flaw of an avg QB. But, I do agree that Hurts can be an absolutely dominate QB with pretty mild improvement in his passing game. Hurts doesn't need to be a 1st rounder to win a championship or Heisman. It just sucks that we may have a QB in Tua that might be even more special as a QB.

Nothing here I could disagree with.

The one wild card right now is we really don't know how much of the read option philosophy will be a part of Daboll's playbook. I know it's CNS's, in reality, but he hired Daboll for a reason.

Krazy, I think you're right to point out it would almost be crazy to not employ some aspects of RPOs in Daboll's offensive approach in JH's running ability, but how much it shows up is a legitimate question that A-day did nothing to answer.

If Kiffin were still around, we'd know, but this is part of the mystery of determining how JH's and TT's strengths will be used going forward.

This is why I could see both of them being used in some capacity in real game situations.
The way I seed the RPO stuff is if literally everyone who watched just one Alabama game last year could see how big of a threat Hurts is running the ball then I'm pretty sure Saban realized this too. I also assume Daboll could also see this. So, if I'm right and two respected football minds saw this incredibly obvious skill set that Hurts has then I think its safe to assume it will be used a good bit. They aren't going to force Jalen to throw from the pocket every play that would be ridiculous and idiotic and I have it on good authority that Saban is neither of those things.
 

BamaMoon

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So, I agree with your overall point but I think this is also somewhat misleading. Put a good pro prospect QB on an elite team and then they will win NC(Winston is a good example). The difference between college and the NFL is that an NFL team can only go as far as its QB but a college team can have enough elite players at other positions that they can cover the flaw of an avg QB. But, I do agree that Hurts can be an absolutely dominate QB with pretty mild improvement in his passing game. Hurts doesn't need to be a 1st rounder to win a championship or Heisman. It just sucks that we may have a QB in Tua that might be even more special as a QB.

The way I seed the RPO stuff is if literally everyone who watched just one Alabama game last year could see how big of a threat Hurts is running the ball then I'm pretty sure Saban realized this too. I also assume Daboll could also see this. So, if I'm right and two respected football minds saw this incredibly obvious skill set that Hurts has then I think its safe to assume it will be used a good bit. They aren't going to force Jalen to throw from the pocket every play that would be ridiculous and idiotic and I have it on good authority that Saban is neither of those things.
There's no doubt Daboll and CNS already know the value of Jalen's running ability. The question is how much do they value an equally potent downfield passing game? That was the missing ingredient last year, as we all know, and that seems to be the reason Daboll was hired to bring back some elements of a prostyle attack.
 

Nolan

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Crimson white didn't say anyone was not high on Tua, and he didn't say anything about Jalen that hasn't been said many times before. All he said was most people give Tua little chance (context clearly shows he means chance to overtake Jalen for the starter job), which is obviously a true statement. In this thread almost nobody thinks that is likely. No need to read more into a comment than it really says. If CW thinks Tua has a better chance to win the job than most other people, then that's his opinion. No reason to misrepresent what he said and then bash a strawman. Especially doing this at a new person, it makes them not want to come back.
If you considered my reply harsh, or bashing like GrayTide jokingly said, then you must REALLY not like a lot of the others posts on Tidefans.

Also, I like identifying logical fallacies as much as the next guy, but a strawman? It's a conversation about football.

I'll clarify - I think Tua is AWESOME, Jalen is AWESOME, wish like heck we could RS Tua to create class separation and expect Jalen to have a HUGE year.
 

Intl.Aperture

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All I can say is that I'm amazed at how much Jalen improved from January 10th till now. He looked much more polished as a passer in just 4 months - now he has another 5 till the season starts and then he has the ability to continue developing during the season. If he was able make the jump he did in this short period of time I can't wait to see him in September.

Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.

He knows the game but you can't teach game speed. He's not acclimated to it yet and Jalen is. And it would take a LOT of reps to get him to a place where having linebackers who are twice as tall as the ones he faced in high-school, and likely as fast as many of his former receivers, are barreling downfield at him. That takes acclimation.
 

BamaMoon

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All I can say is that I'm amazed at how much Jalen improved from January 10th till now. He looked much more polished as a passer in just 4 months - now he has another 5 till the season starts and then he has the ability to continue developing during the season. If he was able make the jump he did in this short period of time I can't wait to see him in September.

Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.

He knows the game but you can't teach game speed. He's not acclimated to it yet and Jalen is. And it would take a LOT of reps to get him to a place where having linebackers who are twice as tall as the ones he faced in high-school, and likely as fast as many of his former receivers, are barreling downfield at him. That takes acclimation.
I don't recall anybody saying they think Tua literally beats out JH to win the starting job, especially by FSU. I think the mystery is:

1. Will Tua redshirt?
2. If not, how much will he play as a backup?
3. Or, might we employ some variation of a two qb system if his talents are undeniably insane to the staff?
 

Intl.Aperture

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I don't recall anybody saying they think Tua literally beats out JH to win the starting job, especially by FSU. I think the mystery is:

1. Will Tua redshirt?
2. If not, how much will he play as a backup?
3. Or, might we employ some variation of a two qb system if his talents are undeniably insane to the staff?
I've seen a few people say they wouldn't be surprised if Tua is the starter by the end of the season. I disagree with that strongly.
 

TiderJack

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Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.
This is the point people need to look at. Huge difference in 1's vs. 1's than 2's vs 2's. Saban even said it after the game. Tua is going to be an amazing QB but you can't really compare his performance to Jalen's in this game since it was basically apples vs oranges.
 

JaxTider

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Im a big Jalen fan.

But I have this feeling that Tua is potentially a first pick type guy.
And nobody steps in against our monsters on defense and shreds them from day one.

I just think there has to be a better way than to sit a guy with this potential.

If playing Tua a quarter and a half a game risks defeat, then sit him. But only if it plays out that way. Otherwise, play them both.

It's just unfortunate that only a year separates these two.
 

RTR91

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Im a big Jalen fan.

But I have this feeling that Tua is potentially a first pick type guy.
And nobody steps in against our monsters on defense and shreds them from day one.

I just think there has to be a better way than to sit a guy with this potential.

If playing Tua a quarter and a half a game risks defeat, then sit him. But only if it plays out that way. Otherwise, play them both.

It's just unfortunate that only a year separates these two.
And Blake Barnett gave people that same feeling.

As did Phillip Sims.

As did David Cornwell.

QB is not a position where a coach can just say "we're going to let this one guy play this amount of time per game because he's so good." That's just asking for trouble.

We all know Saban hates clutter. If he did what you think should happen, he would be driving a moving truck worth of clutter.
 

BamaMoon

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I've seen a few people say they wouldn't be surprised if Tua is the starter by the end of the season. I disagree with that strongly.
Yes, come to think of it, I do recall that being said a time or two. But, here's the thing nobody knows or can predict the future. How much does Jalen grow in the passing department and/or how much does Tua play??? And if he plays how good might he be after a lot of game experience?

I think the likelihood of Tua overtaking him, even if he actually plays, is not real high, but I guess it's not impossible.
 

LA4Bama

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If you considered my reply harsh, or bashing like GrayTide jokingly said, then you must REALLY not like a lot of the others posts on Tidefans.

Also, I like identifying logical fallacies as much as the next guy, but a strawman? It's a conversation about football.

I'll clarify - I think Tua is AWESOME, Jalen is AWESOME, wish like heck we could RS Tua to create class separation and expect Jalen to have a HUGE year.
Nolan, it may well have been unintended but you did misrepresent what he said. And yes, strawman, why not? Logic applies to regular conversation too.

However I do not think your post was harsh. I lumped together my reply to two posts, yours and Krazy's. I think the rhetorical and dismissive tone of his post is harsh. Sorry if you felt I was misreprenting what you wrote :wink:

Actually I recall you sticking up for me in another thread and I appreciate that.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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All I can say is that I'm amazed at how much Jalen improved from January 10th till now. He looked much more polished as a passer in just 4 months - now he has another 5 till the season starts and then he has the ability to continue developing during the season. If he was able make the jump he did in this short period of time I can't wait to see him in September.

Listen, I'll eat my shoe if Tua usurps Jalen this season due to anything other than injury. He threw it nice against the 2nd team defense - AND they were playing vanilla. The moment he was in against the 1st team with blitzes he held the ball too long, he threw late over the middle and his mechanics fell apart. Be real. The kid is an amazing talent who WILL turn into a stellar college QB but he's not beating out Jalen Hurts for the job this season.

He knows the game but you can't teach game speed. He's not acclimated to it yet and Jalen is. And it would take a LOT of reps to get him to a place where having linebackers who are twice as tall as the ones he faced in high-school, and likely as fast as many of his former receivers, are barreling downfield at him. That takes acclimation.
This is the point people need to look at. Huge difference in 1's vs. 1's than 2's vs 2's. Saban even said it after the game. Tua is going to be an amazing QB but you can't really compare his performance to Jalen's in this game since it was basically apples vs oranges.
Tua playing against the 2s is important to note for sure. But I think the issue with Tua when he went against the 1s was more him adjusting. Even if you are ready to move up a notch it sometimes takes a little bit to get comfortable with what you are seeing. I agree that Jalen isn't going to lose his job though. I just don't think I would take too much out Tua's struggles on those 2 drives just like I wouldn't proclaim him our new starter because of his play against the 2s.

And Blake Barnett gave people that same feeling.

As did Phillip Sims.

As did David Cornwell.

QB is not a position where a coach can just say "we're going to let this one guy play this amount of time per game because he's so good." That's just asking for trouble.

We all know Saban hates clutter. If he did what you think should happen, he would be driving a moving truck worth of clutter.
I think its fair to say at this point there is more validity to the comments about Tua than any of those guys. I don't remember watching A Day while those guys were here and being wowed. I also don't remember hearing reports from practice that any of those guys were really wowing people. I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to go back and make sure. I just think it seems clear that Tua is on a different level than most true freshman.
 

BamaMoon

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Tua playing against the 2s is important to note for sure. But I think the issue with Tua when he went against the 1s was more him adjusting. Even if you are ready to move up a notch it sometimes takes a little bit to get comfortable with what you are seeing. I agree that Jalen isn't going to lose his job though. I just don't think I would take too much out Tua's struggles on those 2 drives just like I wouldn't proclaim him our new starter because of his play against the 2s.

I think its fair to say at this point there is more validity to the comments about Tua than any of those guys. I don't remember watching A Day while those guys were here and being wowed. I also don't remember hearing reports from practice that any of those guys were really wowing people. I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to go back and make sure. I just think it seems clear that Tua is on a different level than most true freshman.
That's my memory as well...What I remember hearing about Blake Barnett is that he was throwing mulitiple INTs in practice and scrimmages. I never heard glowing reports about any of the others from practices and I don't remember the last time we saw a freshman qb do anything close to what Tua did. He even had better numbers than Jalen Saturday.

And yes, I know who went against first team and second team, but your point is well made that those other guys didn't light up anybody at anytime. Even the ESPN guys were drooling over Tua.
 

RTR91

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I think its fair to say at this point there is more validity to the comments about Tua than any of those guys. I don't remember watching A Day while those guys were here and being wowed. I also don't remember hearing reports from practice that any of those guys were really wowing people. I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to go back and make sure. I just think it seems clear that Tua is on a different level than most true freshman.
That's my memory as well...What I remember hearing about Blake Barnett is that he was throwing mulitiple INTs in practice and scrimmages. I never heard glowing reports about any of the others from practices and I don't remember the last time we saw a freshman qb do anything close to what Tua did. He even had better numbers than Jalen Saturday.

And yes, I know who went against first team and second team, but your point is well made that those other guys didn't light up anybody at anytime. Even the ESPN guys were drooling over Tua.
My comment wasn't based on people's feelings after a spring game or camp. Just stating people had those same feelings at some point when those players signed.

As B1G said Sunday or yesterday, we don't know how great any of AJ's backups could have been, but are we upset about it?
 

KrAzY3

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One thing I'd like to address is the notion of Tua playing some sort of special plays that take advantage of some abilities that only he possesses. I remember during AJ's tenure, some of us bringing up the idea of Blake Sims running wildcat. In theory it sounded good right? AJ can't really run, Blake could run and throw, so surely in some situations he'd have been better right? Well, that's overlooking the reality of benching one of the best college quarterbacks of the BCS era for a rough around the edges quarterback. It sounds good in theory, but in retrospect I now completely appreciate why that didn't happen.

In this case though, I'm not sure Tua really has anything he can do that Hurts can't. Can he do some things better? Absolutely, but this isn't a case where he can run but Hurts can't, or he can throw the deep ball but Hurts can't. It's hard to justify the musical chairs aspect of swapping Tua in so he can do what exactly? I just don't see that as being advantageous or realistic. Having said that, if he is going to burn the redshirt, if that's a done deal, I would prefer he come into the game earlier and hopefully get to run a more wide open offense. That might keep him more engaged, help him learn, and keep Hurts out of harms way more often. But there's a big difference between Tua coming in late in the third quarter with a comfortable lead, or if Hurts gets his bell rung, and throwing him into a close game to run a series of plays because he might be able to do something a little better. May be he can run a few trick players here or there, but you take the guy with all the experience and the first team reps out only when it makes a heck of a lot of sense.
 

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