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81usaf92 said:

i don't think you understand the NFL. Most guys have played 12-14 years of true competition football. Most college players have played 8 if they started every year, and didn't forgo their senior year. Experience kills inexperience. The Browns may suck by NFL standards, but they would win the national championship every year if you placed them in college, and make Bama look like LSU.

Btw the dolphins were a playoff team.

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Miami made the playoffs, but they weren't a playoff team. The Pittsburgh Steeler showed them as much in the 1st round. Miami managed to compile 10 wins against the worst teams in the league and all teams with losing records. And they're not two deep at every position with NFL talent. Not even one deep at every position with NFL talent.

Secondly, Miami was 1-5 until they finally cut Dallas Thomas and Billy Turner. Immediately after that, they went on a 6 game winning streak. Here's the deal...it took a 21 year old rookie from the SEC with ZERO NFL experience to come in and solidify Miami's offensive line. Laremy Tunsil. You may have heard of him. Not to mention he was even playing out of position at LG instead of LT. Why? Because the guy who had already been with the team with 5 years of NFL experience looked like this for 2/3 of the snaps he ever played in the NFL....






Don't give me that experience kills inexperience garbage. Talent wins. And the NFL doesn't have nearly as much of it as you think it does.


But I get it. This guy was an "NFL starter". So he must be good. I mean, he's in the NFL. He's a starter. Do I need to run down the list of fundamental flaws Dallas Thomas displays there? But he has to be better than anybody playing in college though. He's a starter...in the NFL. BTW, that's not Reggie White putting him on his fanny. It's George Selvie....a 7th round pick out of powerhouse USF in 2010 who was on his 5th team in 3 years by the time he reached the Cowboys, and had done absolutely nothing in the NFL.

Do you think George Selvie does that to Cam Robinson right now? Right now...today. If they lined up across from each other today, do you believe Cam Robinson would get abused like that? I'd bet you as high as you wanted to bet that it wouldn't even be close.


But this is the type of players that NFL rosters are chock full of that many of you just pass off as NFL talent. He's not bad by NFL standards, he's bad by any standard. He would've been pulling splinters out of his butt if he played like that at Alabama. But he got away with it for years in the NFL with Miami. There are players this incompetent at every position on the field throughout ever roster in the league.

It's kinda like the difference between Johnny Archer and the 16 year old kid who plays pro level 9-ball that nobody really knows. Everybody knows Johnny Archer, but they'll both put a 6 pack down on you so fast your head will spin. I've seen that 16 year old kid beat Johnny Archer in a tournament for all the cash.

You overestimate the talent in the NFL, and overestimate the talent gap between big time SEC football and the have-nots in the NFL. I don't think you understand the NFL.

B1GTide said:

Was he a bust? Yes. They signed him as a cover corner and he played behind a very good defensive front 7, so his failures were his own. But, as others have said, corner is a tough position to get right out of college - lots of "busts". His size and propensity for injury precluded him from being considered for safety, where he might have been very successful.

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Don't interrupt the Alabama vs. Browns debate with your on-topic thread post.

My .02 cents..

Even average NFL starters would wear our team out. Why? It's 30 year old men going against 20 year old college students. The years and years of strength and experience mean something.

RTR91 said:

I'm sure that had nothing to do with Ryan Tannehill being injured and out for the game, right?

And what do you believe qualifies as a "playoff team" if a team that makes the playoffs doesn't?

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Oh you know...teams that actually beat other teams with winning record during the regular season to earn their way in. Teams that were top 10 in run defense with elite quarterbacks like New England, Dallas, Pittsburg, Green Bay. Even Atlanta was average against the run, but they were special on offense.

Miami was 31st in the league in run defense. Nearly dead last. You're not a playoff team when you're that bad against the run. Especially when you don't have some other area or areas of your team where you're special to compensate for it.

Ryan Tannehill wouldn't have mattered against Pittsburgh in the playoffs unless he was going to tackle Le'Veon Bell.

HartselleTider said:

Don't give me that experience kills inexperience garbage. Talent wins. And the NFL doesn't have nearly as much of it as you think it does.


But I get it. This guy was an "NFL starter". So he must be good. I mean, he's in the NFL. He's a starter. Do I need to run down the list of fundamental flaws Dallas Thomas displays there? But he has to be better than anybody playing in college though. He's a starter...in the NFL. BTW, that's not Reggie White putting him on his fanny. It's George Selvie....a 7th round pick out of powerhouse USF in 2010 who was on his 5th team in 3 years by the time he reached the Cowboys, and had done absolutely nothing in the NFL.

Do you think George Selvie does that to Cam Robinson right now? Right now...today. If they lined up across from each other today, do you believe Cam Robinson would get abused like that? I'd bet you as high as you wanted to bet that it wouldn't even be close.


But this is the type of players that NFL rosters are chock full of that many of you just pass off as NFL talent. He's not bad by NFL standards, he's bad by any standard. He would've been pulling splinters out of his butt if he played like that at Alabama. But he got away with it for years in the NFL with Miami. There are players this incompetent at every position on the field throughout ever roster in the league.

It's kinda like the difference between Johnny Archer and the 16 year old kid who plays pro level 9-ball that nobody really knows. Everybody knows Johnny Archer, but they'll both put a 6 pack down on you so fast your head will spin. I've seen that 16 year old kid beat Johnny Archer in a tournament for all the cash.

You overestimate the talent in the NFL, and overestimate the talent gap between big time SEC football and the have-nots in the NFL. I don't think you understand the NFL.

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This is completely anecdotal. We can all agree some college players are better than some NFL players. If we needed to play a season/game whatever in the NFL or CFB I would take every single NFL roster over any CFB roster and I honestly don't know how anyone could disagree.

HartselleTider said:

Oh you know...teams that actually beat other teams with winning record during the regular season to earn their way in. Teams that were top 10 in run defense with elite quarterbacks like New England, Dallas, Pittsburg, Green Bay. Even Atlanta was average against the run, but they were special on offense.

Miami was 31st in the league in run defense. Nearly dead last. You're not a playoff team when you're that bad against the run. Especially when you don't have some other area or areas of your team where you're special to compensate for it.

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Guy, this happens all the time. Redskins didn't win a single game against a team with a winning record in 2015 and made the playoffs. Besides didn't the Dolphins previously beat the Steelers? You are describing teams expected to be a "contender" not a playoff team. Even then there are flaws in this line of thinking. Look at the 2007 Giants or 2008 Arizona Cardinals. I would be seriously shocked if either of those teams beat more than 1 or 2 teams with a winning records in the regular season. Also, a bunch of teams have won Super Bowls with bad run defense.

HartselleTider said:

Ryan Tannehill wouldn't have mattered against Pittsburgh in the playoffs unless he was going to tackle Le'Veon Bell.

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Considering Matt Moore had 2 fumbles and an Int, yea I think Tannehill makes a difference

Side note: I had no idea Matt Moore was still in the NFL until just now

HartselleTider said:

Oh you know...teams that actually beat other teams with winning record during the regular season to earn their way in. Teams that were top 10 in run defense with elite quarterbacks like New England, Dallas, Pittsburg, Green Bay. Even Atlanta was average against the run, but they were special on offense.


.

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Pittsburgh had one of the worst pass defenses, and two prolific pass offenses played for the Super Bowl

HartselleTider said:

Ryan Tannehill wouldn't have mattered against Pittsburgh in the playoffs unless he was going to tackle Le'Veon Bell.

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Miami embarrassed Pittsburgh in the regular season.

10/16/2016

Miami Dolphins

Pittsburgh Steelers

H

Hard Rock Stadium (Miami Gardens, FL)

W 30-15

65,35

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HartselleTider said:

Hartselle underestimates the talent in the NFL, and doesnt understand the NFL.

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FIFY :wink:

it's not only the talent difference as far as the Bama vs an NFL team goes, but the schemes on both offense and defense are like night and day. It'd be like a varsity high school team playing an 8th or 9th grade high school team.

81usaf92 said:

Bama would lose by 3 tds to any NFL team. The comparison is by far one of the most absurd. I don't know why people continue this debate?

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I remember the college all star game. I remember the Jets almost lost to the college all stars. They were also competitive against a steelers team.

I'm not going to argue that there is any real competition here, but just remember that there are more eventual first and second rounders on an Alabama roster than there are on an NFL team.

Could a great college team beat the crappiest team in the NFL? Yes I think so... maybe 20% of the time.

I once saw a horrid Vandy team go into Norman and lose to the Selmon Brothers and a truely dominant Sooner team by one point.
And there are many similar examples.

Just because they have "NFL" on their jersey doesn't make them a great player. From time to time they could be defeated by great college teams.

81usaf92 said:

The NFL in the 70's and 60's was looked at as the same as professional softball is now unless you played for the blue bloods. Most NFL teams were made from clubs that wanted to continue playing football after college. Playing at Georgia Tech was more of an achievement than playing for the Lions back then. The NFL has become way deeper in talent with more experience around them.

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No son. Your off by about 30 years. The pros in the 60s and 70s were full time professional athletes of the highest order. They were smaller and slower then, but so were the colleges.

And they were drafted athletes, no club players.

I think your thinking about the 30s before the NFL became legitimate. Now back then, many of the great college players never went pro because of the poor pay and lifestyle. At that point, elite college teams probably were better than pro teams.

But by the 50s and 60, none of this applied.

81usaf92 said:

Pittsburgh had one of the worst pass defenses, and two prolific pass offenses played for the Super Bowl


Miami embarrassed Pittsburgh in the regular season.

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Having a bad pass defense in the NFL is not the same as being nearly dead last in run defense. The NFL is a passing league with rules slanted in favor of the passing game. There's a reason why all those teams with top 10 rushing defenses were in the playoffs. You're just being silly now.

Furthermore, Miami embarrassed the '85 Bears in the regular season. What's your point?

Miami beating Pittsburgh at home in the regular season meant nothing. It was just one of those games that happens every week in the NFL. Miami played probably their best game of the season and Pittsburgh played their worst. Ajayi ran for 200 yards and Big Ben got hurt in that game and was on one leg trying to lead them back. He was out for a couple of weeks after that.

The better team clearly didn't win that one. It happens every week in the NFL. The intensity level gets ratcheted up in the playoffs and your weaknesses exposed more. Miami had more weaknesses than Pittsburgh. Especially where it mattered most....run defense. That's why Miami went home and the Steelers advanced.

But you would think since teams like Miami are 2 deep at every position with all this NFL talent, the injuries wouldn't be a talking point here for why they lost. I reckon with Tannehill they lose 30-16 instead of 30-12. He's good for around a fumble or two a game along with a pick also.

No he was not a bust. He was pretty average and had injuries.
I do agree he was drafted too high but that's not his fault.

HartselleTider said:

Having a bad pass defense in the NFL is not the same as being nearly dead last in run defense. The NFL is a passing league with rules slanted in favor of the passing game. There's a reason why all those teams with top 10 rushing defenses were in the playoffs. You're just being silly now.

Furthermore, Miami embarrassed the '85 Bears in the regular season. What's your point?

Miami beating Pittsburgh at home in the regular season meant nothing. It was just one of those games that happens every week in the NFL. Miami played probably their best game of the season and Pittsburgh played their worst. Ajayi ran for 200 yards and Big Ben got hurt in that game and was on one leg trying to lead them back. He was out for a couple of weeks after that.

The better team clearly didn't win that one. It happens every week in the NFL. The intensity level gets ratcheted up in the playoffs and your weaknesses exposed more. Miami had more weaknesses than Pittsburgh. Especially where it mattered most....run defense. That's why Miami went home and the Steelers advanced.

But you would think since teams like Miami are 2 deep at every position with all this NFL talent, the injuries wouldn't be a talking point here for why they lost. I reckon with Tannehill they lose 30-16 instead of 30-12. He's good for around a fumble or two a game along with a pick also.

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I guess you missed the Super bowl.

Look if you want to stay on this crazy notion that the Browns would lose to Bama then I won't continue to debate any further because practically everyone has said the same thing as I.

JaxTider said:

No son. Your off by about 30 years. The pros in the 60s and 70s were full time professional athletes of the highest order. They were smaller and slower then, but so were the colleges.

And they were drafted athletes, no club players.

I think your thinking about the 30s before the NFL became legitimate. Now back then, many of the great college players never went pro because of the poor pay and lifestyle. At that point, elite college teams probably were better than pro teams.

But by the 50s and 60, none of this applied.

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I wasn't referencing the semi pro period, I was referencing the era which playing for Alabama, Oklahoma, and other blue bloods in college was far and away more important than being on an average NFL team. TV exposure, and coaches like Bill Walsh and Johnson elevated the NFL. Landry, Noll, Shula, and Madden became dinosaurs in a rapidly changing NFL. After the Steelers dynasty in the 70's died the gap between NFL and College widened.

81usaf92 said:

I guess you missed the Super bowl.

Look if you want to stay on this crazy notion that the Browns would lose to Bama then I won't continue to debate any further because practically everyone has said the same thing as I.

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Nope didn't miss the Superbowl. I'm almost positive I didn't see a team ranked 31st in run defense playing in it.

And I never said the Browns would lose to Bama. No need to make stuff up I never said. Be accurate in what the discussion was about or take a hike.

I've been around football message boards long enough to know how far off "everyone" can be on something.

81usaf92 said:

I wasn't referencing the semi pro period, I was referencing the era which playing for Alabama, Oklahoma, and other blue bloods in college was far and away more important than being on an average NFL team. TV exposure, and coaches like Bill Walsh and Johnson elevated the NFL. Landry, Noll, Shula, and Madden became dinosaurs in a rapidly changing NFL. After the Steelers dynasty in the 70's died the gap between NFL and College widened.

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The NFL was very big in the 60's and 70's. Nobody worthy passed on playing in the NFL in that era. All three networks carried the games and the ratings where the highest of any sport, with Monday Night football dominating with Gifford, Cosell and Merideth

Hardly women's softball.

And while playing for your college was always important, everyone aspired to go pro.

I guess I gust don't remember that period like you do.

That was the golden age of pro football. Haven't you heard of Namath, Stabler, Griese, Bradshaw, Joe Green, Lynn Swan, Larry Csonka, Dick Butkus, Stauback, Leroy Jordan, OJ Simpson, Jim Brown, Len Dawson, Gale Sayers, Jim Plunkett, Dave Casper, Fred Balitnikof, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Alan Page, Carl Eller, Nick Bonnocani,

I could go on all night.

JaxTider said:

The NFL was very big in the 60's and 70's. Nobody worthy passed on playing in the NFL in that era. All three networks carried the games and the ratings where the highest of any sport, with Monday Night football dominating with Gifford, Cosell and Merideth

Hardly women's softball.

And while playing for your college was always important, everyone aspired to go pro.

I guess I gust don't remember that period like you do.

That was the golden age of pro football. Haven't you heard of Namath, Stabler, Griese, Bradshaw, Joe Green, Lynn Swan, Larry Csonka, Dick Butkus, Stauback, Leroy Jordan, OJ Simpson, Jim Brown, Len Dawson, Gale Sayers, Jim Plunkett, Dave Casper, Fred Balitnikof, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Alan Page, Carl Eller, Nick Bonnocani,

I could go on all night.

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Compare the Bill Walsh era of players (not his first 2 SB teams specifically but the type of players NFL teams started to go after) to the Noll/ Landry era of players. Point is that once the NFL started going towards a finesse and passing league it changed. True Staubach and Bradshaw were great passers but they also relied more heavily on their running backs than Montana, Sims, and Elway in the 80's. None of those teams in the 70's could stay on the field against the teams in the late 80's. College football made a slight change here and there but the core of college football is still based around the run. If you can't control the clock and score with a running team with a highly efficient passing team then you are going to get boat raced. Alabama has had trouble against many effective college passing teams, and has struggled against good college defenses while being the best team in college. They would get boat raced by any NFL team right now.

HartselleTider said:

Nope didn't miss the Superbowl. I'm almost positive I didn't see a team ranked 31st in run defense playing in it.

And I never said the Browns would lose to Bama. No need to make stuff up I never said. Be accurate in what the discussion was about or take a hike.

I've been around football message boards long enough to know how far off "everyone" can be on something.

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Run defense is not as important in the NFL as it is in college. If you can't stop Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers,or Matt Ryan passing then you probably aren't going to win the Super Bowl or go far in the playoffs. That's a huge reason why pass rushers are at a premium compared to run stoppers. Is been proven in draft after draft and free agency acquisitions over and over. So unless your whole goal in the season is to win the AFC North then I don't see much difference between having the 1st run defense than having the 31st if you possess a great pass defense.

81usaf92 said:

Compare the Bill Walsh era of players (not his first 2 SB teams specifically but the type of players NFL teams started to go after) to the Noll/ Landry era of players. Point is that once the NFL started going towards a finesse and passing league it changed. True Staubach and Bradshaw were great passers but they also relied more heavily on their running backs than Montana, Sims, and Elway in the 80's. None of those teams in the 70's could stay on the field against the teams in the late 80's. College football made a slight change here and there but the core of college football is still based around the run. If you can't control the clock and score with a running team with a highly efficient passing team then you are going to get boat raced. Alabama has had trouble against many effective college passing teams, and has struggled against good college defenses while being the best team in college. They would get boat raced by any NFL team right now.

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That is all due to the rule changes occurring in the late 70s and the subsequent adaptation and gradual exploitation of new opportunities.

No longer could you touch a receiver five yards past the LOS. Before this rule, receivers were mugged All over the field prior to the QB throwing the ball.

Extended arms and open hands during pass blocking. Effectively legalized holding and extended the range and effectness of the OL. Much more time in the pocket.

You change just these two rules back and the NFL is a different league overnight.