Big 12 perception continues to sink

Redwood Forrest

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The astonishing thing is how far the Big 12 has sunk in terms of perception, talent and … winning. We can debate everything from revenue to recruiting, but what can't be argued is image.

It is the only league to miss the three-year-old College Football Playoff twice. It is the only Power Five league not to win a CFP game.

According to the 247Sports Composite rankings, Oklahoma hasn't signed a top-10 recruit from the state of Texas in four years. Herman signed Texas' "worst" recruiting class since rankings were established in 1990. Herman called it a "transitional" year in recruiting after his class finished 26th.


http://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...t-perception-of-the-league-continues-to-sink/

The Big 12 is going to have to step up in recruiting or get a boat load of luck if they plan on putting a team in the Playoff consistently.

While not an exact science, 'crootin is one of the signs of being on the hot seat, IMO, and it is what I would be looking at when evaluating my HC. Example: Sumlin is a big underachiever and should be axed. Tennessee and Arkansas are lesser underachievers but still don't seem to be able to match on field with on paper.

Stoops matches his "on paper" with "on field" ..... and that is the problem, his "on paper" is not a national power.
 
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B1GTide

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The harsh reality, they just don't have great coaches so are losing their best recruits to teams that do have great coaches. It all starts with attracting the best coaches.
 

Redwood Forrest

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The harsh reality, they just don't have great coaches so are losing their best recruits to teams that do have great coaches. It all starts with attracting the best coaches.
I think it also doesn't help to be considered a "high school" offence conference. Most really good players see that being drafted high in the NFL is not a Big 12 strong suit.
 

KrAzY3

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The truth is they are lucky to still exist. Losing Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri was a blow they likely never get over. Texas is still looking at the Pac-12 most likely, Oklahoma still probably wants in the SEC, and pretty much everyone else is still there because they can't do better. I think this can't help but rub off on the rest of the conference, impact recruiting, etc... To give one example of how this shakes out, if you look at last year's team recruiting rankings, it's kind of alternates between former Big 12 programs and Big 12 programs. So at the "top" you have Oklahoma, Texas A&M, Nebraska, Texas, Colorado and Baylor.

I imagine Texas and Oklahoma saw themselves kind of consolidating the talent, but they haven't really been able to do that yet and without an elite Oklahoma or Texas program the Big 12 really doesn't have anything.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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I think Oklahoma would be fun to have in the SEC some day. I like the idea of 4 super conferences in general so maybe a declining Big 12 will be a good thing for that idea. Or not.
 

Redwood Forrest

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http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...mors-sec-big-12-big-ten-sun-belt-sure-why-not

After the 2017 NFL draft made the league look like a pile of wet laundry being dragged along by Oklahoma (an impression backed up by recent on-field performance), rumor people started rumoring that the Sooners would like to leave for the SEC.

OU is unhappy. Yes. They are unhappy. This is one of those things where you can kind of tell it bleeds over into the fan base. OU fans are definitely to the stage where it just takes a little piece of information for an avalanche of 'WE GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE.' To the extent that I have any real OU sources, they have long been to that stage. They are tired of the Big 12 being terrible.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...mors-sec-big-12-big-ten-sun-belt-sure-why-not

After the 2017 NFL draft made the league look like a pile of wet laundry being dragged along by Oklahoma (an impression backed up by recent on-field performance), rumor people started rumoring that the Sooners would like to leave for the SEC.

OU is unhappy. Yes. They are unhappy. This is one of those things where you can kind of tell it bleeds over into the fan base. OU fans are definitely to the stage where it just takes a little piece of information for an avalanche of 'WE GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE.' To the extent that I have any real OU sources, they have long been to that stage. They are tired of the Big 12 being terrible.
My fiance went to OU and she and her friends have been pretty envious of the SEC for a while. They love their rivalry with Texas (excuse me I mean Saxet) but are over the Big 12 as a whole. I wonder how the SEC would shake out if OU were to join.
 

KrAzY3

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I think Oklahoma would be fun to have in the SEC some day. I like the idea of 4 super conferences in general so maybe a declining Big 12 will be a good thing for that idea. Or not.
I kind of understand why Oklahoma wants into the SEC, the SEC controls so much fertile recruiting territory and has better finances. But, I for the life of me can't understand why SEC fans would want Oklahoma in the conference. Small state, and for instance Alabama already routinely plays one of the toughest schedules in the country. It's all risk and no reward for the SEC, just make the schedule more brutal, and even that wouldn't stop people from calling for more SEC games (which would then compound the problem further).

Fortunately, I think programs like Miss. State and Arkansas would use common sense and block the move. Why on earth would they want to move further down the totem pole?
 

Redwood Forrest

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I think Oklahoma would be fun to have in the SEC some day. I like the idea of 4 super conferences in general so maybe a declining Big 12 will be a good thing for that idea. Or not.
The problem is someone will get left out. If Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State go to Pac 12 that only leaves Kansas basketball as something on the table. If just Texas and Texas Tech move west that still leaves holes for four sixteen team leagues. Who wants Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa State, TCU, Baylor, W Virginia. Heck, Cincinnati, Memphis, USF, and UCF are better options than those six, considering the distance.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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I kind of understand why Oklahoma wants into the SEC, the SEC controls so much fertile recruiting territory and has better finances. But, I for the life of me can't understand why SEC fans would want Oklahoma in the conference. Small state, and for instance Alabama already routinely plays one of the toughest schedules in the country. It's all risk and no reward for the SEC, just make the schedule more brutal, and even that wouldn't stop people from calling for more SEC games (which would then compound the problem further).

Fortunately, I think programs like Miss. State and Arkansas would use common sense and block the move. Why on earth would they want to move further down the totem pole?
Because I don't really care about the SEC in that way. I care about football being fun for me as a fan and it would be more fun to add a traditional power like Oklahoma.

The problem is someone will get left out. If Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State go to Pac 12 that only leaves Kansas basketball as something on the table. If just Texas and Texas Tech move west that still leaves holes for four sixteen team leagues. Who wants Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa State, TCU, Baylor, W Virginia. Heck, Cincinnati, Memphis, USF, and UCF are better options than those six, considering the distance.
Yea it would be incredibly difficult for a lot of this to work out. That's why I'm not at all expecting it to happen. At least not any time soon.
 

Redwood Forrest

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I kind of understand why Oklahoma wants into the SEC, the SEC controls so much fertile recruiting territory and has better finances. But, I for the life of me can't understand why SEC fans would want Oklahoma in the conference. Small state, and for instance Alabama already routinely plays one of the toughest schedules in the country. It's all risk and no reward for the SEC, just make the schedule more brutal, and even that wouldn't stop people from calling for more SEC games (which would then compound the problem further).

Fortunately, I think programs like Miss. State and Arkansas would use common sense and block the move. Why on earth would they want to move further down the totem pole?
I am with you on this. Expansion should be for Media $$$ and nothing else. The SEC already has the recruit footprint and the Power teams that it brings, so why go for more Power teams? I had rather have Cincinnati or E Carolina than Oklahoma/Oklahoma State for the T.V. and let someone else have the Power team Oklahoma. It wouldn't be long till Cincy and E Carolina would be beating up on Vandy and Kentucky.
 

Sagamore Bill

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All the discussion here in Oklahoma is "the SEC would beg OU to come". OU offers nothing but history, which I admit is considerable. Even with their most recent expansion their stadium is mid-size in the SEC. Tv draw is limited outside of OK. & TX. (Last year T A & M had better ratings). Much of the reason for teams leaving the conference was the outright greed of OU & TX. They demanded and received a larger cut of the TV revenue than the other teams. OU is the only team that has shown well against SEC teams, beat Tenn. twice (Coached by the orange pants), Alabama twice (Shula). The only valid win was Alabama in 2013 (following the "kick six" loss). The university president considers OU above the SEC in academics (ignore the fact that they would rate seventh according to the latest stats). Believe me the SEC does not need another primadonna like OU. Unless you want to begin calling them "THE" OU.
 

Special K

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Screw OU. They offer us nothing as a conference and they hitched their wagon to the shorthorns over and over again. Good luck to them, but no thanks.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I kind of understand why Oklahoma wants into the SEC, the SEC controls so much fertile recruiting territory and has better finances. But, I for the life of me can't understand why SEC fans would want Oklahoma in the conference. Small state, and for instance Alabama already routinely plays one of the toughest schedules in the country. It's all risk and no reward for the SEC, just make the schedule more brutal, and even that wouldn't stop people from calling for more SEC games (which would then compound the problem further).

Fortunately, I think programs like Miss. State and Arkansas would use common sense and block the move. Why on earth would they want to move further down the totem pole?
I only disagree with you slightly and that's in this - Oklahoma's perception as a long-time national power is quite similar to Nebraska. They're not great per se, they're great because they have a truckload of mediocrity all around them. I mean, what IS the Big 12? Well, what was it in 1996? It was ALL EIGHT teams from the old Little Two/Big Six conference plus Texas, ATM, Baylor, and Texas Tech. Based on history, it was a two-team conference that became a four-team conference (Texas and ATM) out of twelve teams. And now two of those four have been gone for years, leaving Texas and OU.

Put OU in the SEC and while, yes, they'll occasionally sneak in there, the downside is bigger for them in terms of winning games. They will lose A LOT more when they don't have what amounts to a three-team (in a tough year) schedule. They're good enough to inflict damage to the SEC West by taking teams out via "bone shattering" losses, where OU loses but the SEC foe loses the next game because they're beat up.

Their playoff team last year needed overtime to scrape by a mediocre Tennessee team. Just imagine if the very next week they'd had to face Alabama and the next LSU.
 

KrAzY3

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Because I don't really care about the SEC in that way. I care about football being fun for me as a fan and it would be more fun to add a traditional power like Oklahoma.
Well, I'm not an entertainment value fan. I stay for the fourth quarter of blowouts, I attend games vs. FCS opponents, and I'd much rather Alabama do what's best for Alabama than just try to entertain me. I get it, I understand, nothing but brutal opponents, more home and homes, would mean more entertainment. That is unless you consider winning national titles entertainment in which case there will be less of that. I'm not accusing you of all of that mind you, but I've seen every single one of those sentiments expressed by people who value entertainment value over what's best for Alabama. In this case though, let me be clear, what's best for the SEC is also best for Alabama. Adding Oklahoma literally would do nothing at all to help Alabama. It's not like Oklahoma would open up fertile recruiting territory for Alabama.

Having said that, I do see the possibility of the Big 12 vanishing and us being left with 4 major conferences. But, that would most likely be a reintroduction of the Pac-12 expanding to 16 talk. Oklahoma at this point might prefer that anyway, although clearly their fans prefer the SEC (although they might be imagining the SEC as being more magical than it is, something would have to give and it could very well be Oklahoma's football prowess).

The problem is someone will get left out. If Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State go to Pac 12 that only leaves Kansas basketball as something on the table. If just Texas and Texas Tech move west that still leaves holes for four sixteen team leagues. Who wants Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa State, TCU, Baylor, W Virginia. Heck, Cincinnati, Memphis, USF, and UCF are better options than those six, considering the distance.
I'm not sure how much clout TCU and Baylor might have in terms of stopping Texas and Texas Tech from leaving, but I believe the original plan was Colorado, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Texas, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to form the Pac-16. Instead they just added Utah to go with Colorado. A&M is now out of the picture though, so the rest of that could still happen. As for the rest? I imagine the American Athletic Conference and the Mountain West will end up fighting over the scraps and bolstering themselves. So you'd end up with 4 major conferences, and then a bigger gap between the bottom conferences (C-USA, Sun Belt and MAC).
 

crimsonaudio

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Because I don't really care about the SEC in that way. I care about football being fun for me as a fan and it would be more fun to add a traditional power like Oklahoma.
I would think part of the fun is winning championships - making the schedule more difficult does not help Bama's chances.
 

Redwood Forrest

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All the discussion here in Oklahoma is "the SEC would beg OU to come". OU offers nothing but history, which I admit is considerable. Even with their most recent expansion their stadium is mid-size in the SEC. Tv draw is limited outside of OK. & TX. (Last year T A & M had better ratings). Much of the reason for teams leaving the conference was the outright greed of OU & TX. They demanded and received a larger cut of the TV revenue than the other teams. OU is the only team that has shown well against SEC teams, beat Tenn. twice (Coached by the orange pants), Alabama twice (Shula). The only valid win was Alabama in 2013 (following the "kick six" loss). The university president considers OU above the SEC in academics (ignore the fact that they would rate seventh according to the latest stats). Believe me the SEC does not need another primadonna like OU. Unless you want to begin calling them "THE" OU.
Thanks for pointing the academic side out. The B12 puts a lot of stock in the AAU, I think it is. Whatever it is it doesn't seem to be working so well.

The SEC has six teams whose all time wins are over 60%. The Big 10 has four. The ACC has two, The Big 12 has two and the Pac 12 has one.

Well, the SEC and B1G have ten together while the other three have five together.
 
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RollTide_HTTR

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I would think part of the fun is winning championships - making the schedule more difficult does not help Bama's chances.
Well, I'm not an entertainment value fan. I stay for the fourth quarter of blowouts, I attend games vs. FCS opponents, and I'd much rather Alabama do what's best for Alabama than just try to entertain me. I get it, I understand, nothing but brutal opponents, more home and homes, would mean more entertainment. That is unless you consider winning national titles entertainment in which case there will be less of that. I'm not accusing you of all of that mind you, but I've seen every single one of those sentiments expressed by people who value entertainment value over what's best for Alabama. In this case though, let me be clear, what's best for the SEC is also best for Alabama. Adding Oklahoma literally would do nothing at all to help Alabama. It's not like Oklahoma would open up fertile recruiting territory for Alabama.
I love winning championships. I love it more when we played harder schedules. I'm not a Coach, AD, etc so while I understand that the business side matters I don't care about it enough to not want OU in the SEC. I watch every blow out game till the end, watch A Day, etc. But my overall priorities when it comes to football are 1. Player safety 2. Entertainment 3. As much parity as possible 4. Everything else. I know that power conferences very well could impact player safety and there would need to be a serious discussion about how to make the system work without putting too much of a burden on the players. But I think it could probably be done in a way that would increase parity and protect the players. Will it ever get done in a smart and effective way? probably not. For me though, it's fun to dream of scenarios and situations even though they are unlikely.

I love Alabama and every loss stings and I am on the edge of my seat every game. I want us to win every game and every Championship. But, personally I think it's more fun to win the harder it is. I completely understand anyone who feels differently and their are plenty of valid reasons to.
 

Redwood Forrest

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Well, I'm not an entertainment value fan. I stay for the fourth quarter of blowouts, I attend games vs. FCS opponents, and I'd much rather Alabama do what's best for Alabama than just try to entertain me. I get it, I understand, nothing but brutal opponents, more home and homes, would mean more entertainment. That is unless you consider winning national titles entertainment in which case there will be less of that. I'm not accusing you of all of that mind you, but I've seen every single one of those sentiments expressed by people who value entertainment value over what's best for Alabama. In this case though, let me be clear, what's best for the SEC is also best for Alabama. Adding Oklahoma literally would do nothing at all to help Alabama. It's not like Oklahoma would open up fertile recruiting territory for Alabama.

Having said that, I do see the possibility of the Big 12 vanishing and us being left with 4 major conferences. But, that would most likely be a reintroduction of the Pac-12 expanding to 16 talk. Oklahoma at this point might prefer that anyway, although clearly their fans prefer the SEC (although they might be imagining the SEC as being more magical than it is, something would have to give and it could very well be Oklahoma's football prowess).


I'm not sure how much clout TCU and Baylor might have in terms of stopping Texas and Texas Tech from leaving, but I believe the original plan was Colorado, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Texas, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to form the Pac-16. Instead they just added Utah to go with Colorado. A&M is now out of the picture though, so the rest of that could still happen. As for the rest? I imagine the American Athletic Conference and the Mountain West will end up fighting over the scraps and bolstering themselves. So you'd end up with 4 major conferences, and then a bigger gap between the bottom conferences (C-USA, Sun Belt and MAC).
If the moves took place this year I don't think Baylor would be in any position to do much, given they scandal ridden U. The way they are going about fixing their problems leads me to believe they will never weld as much power in Texas as they used to.
 

RTR91

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I love winning championships. I love it more when we played harder schedules. I'm not a Coach, AD, etc so while I understand that the business side matters I don't care about it enough to not want OU in the SEC. I watch every blow out game till the end, watch A Day, etc. But my overall priorities when it comes to football are 1. Player safety 2. Entertainment 3. As much parity as possible 4. Everything else. I know that power conferences very well could impact player safety and there would need to be a serious discussion about how to make the system work without putting too much of a burden on the players. But I think it could probably be done in a way that would increase parity and protect the players. Will it ever get done in a smart and effective way? probably not. For me though, it's fun to dream of scenarios and situations even though they are unlikely.

I love Alabama and every loss stings and I am on the edge of my seat every game. I want us to win every game and every Championship. But, personally I think it's more fun to win the harder it is. I completely understand anyone who feels differently and their are plenty of valid reasons to.
We just had the toughest schedule in the nation. What more do you want?
 

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