Senate Healthcare Bill Released (zombied for now)

Bamaro

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

One thing they didn't fix with this bill for some reason is it still allows you to buy insurance after you become sick.
 

CharminTide

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

One thing they didn't fix with this bill for some reason is it still allows you to buy insurance after you become sick.
It's designed to fail. Even a superficial look at the changes makes that obvious. It's clear that the true GOP constituents are the wealthy elite; this (retroactive) tax cut bill is meant for them, not for any of us. The scary thing is, it might actually pass.
 

Intl.Aperture

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

I never said it was the norm, but expensive medical bills are not nearly as rare as you seem to be suggesting. The hospital system where I work is about 1,000 beds, and we're near or at capacity every day. Just looking at the list of problems our patients have, the surgeries they've undergone, and the drugs or long-term care they require, I'd (conservatively) wager that at least 700 wouldn't be able to afford medical care on the kind of savings account system you suggest. And that's just our patient load on any given day. Granted, I do work at a tertiary care hospital, but there are hundreds of other centers that could make similar claims. What is your solution for these people? Just let them choose death or bankruptcy? Ignoring questions of morality, even that doesn't sidestep the cost--we'll still be paying for their medical bills when they show up nearly dead at the ED and EMTALA compels treatment. It's just not a realistic option, IMO.
I still think the best long term solution for those in this position is for hospitals to function more as commodities. The healthcare industry needs to have better profit incentive and freedom of labor. As it stands fewer Americans are becoming doctors (we could debate the reasons why) and there is overdemand stimulated by government driven health insurance coverage which leads to mass shortages. The result is an over-reliance on emergency care and those costs are distributed among government, hospitals, and insurance payers.

I confess that this is not an area of expertise for me. But I don't think we are allowing the free market to do enough in healthcare. Look, it was broken before ACA and I'd say it's stagnated now in that many more people have coverage but I also know many people who now cannot afford their premiums and have to downgrade their care or drop it altogether (not to mention some of my freelance friends who are getting dinged with the mandate, which you characterized as 'laughably weak', but is still hurting them in very tangible ways).

While I don't think the free market is a righteous force for good that, when unfettered, can only bring glory and cash to the most morally worthy, I DO think too little of it is allowed to work in the healthcare industry and I REALLY don't think more government intervention will help.
 
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Intl.Aperture

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

It's designed to fail. Even a superficial look at the changes makes that obvious. It's clear that the true GOP constituents are the wealthy elite; this (retroactive) tax cut bill is meant for them, not for any of us. The scary thing is, it might actually pass.
If you think about it, it's their only play.
They can't just repeal ACA and replace it with nothing or say "We are going back to the way it was and tough noogies to all the people we are taking health care away from." That bell has been rung for the moment.
The only way to get rid of it and wash their hands like Pontious Pilate is to set it up so that it fails of it's own virtue and THEN they can say, "See, government mandated healthcare doesn't work! Back to the drawing board."
To be clear I was not convinced ACA was going to work longterm anyways and this just likely hastens it's demise. But it is still underhanded and deceptive and most Americans will see through it.
 

92tide

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

If you think about it, it's their only play.
They can't just repeal ACA and replace it with nothing or say "We are going back to the way it was and tough noogies to all the people we are taking health care away from." That bell has been rung for the moment.
The only way to get rid of it and wash their hands like Pontious Pilate is to set it up so that it fails of it's own virtue and THEN they can say, "See, government mandated healthcare doesn't work! Back to the drawing board."
To be clear I was not convinced ACA was going to work longterm anyways and this just likely hastens it's demise. But it is still underhanded and deceptive and most Americans will see through it.
imho, that has been the gop approach to pretty much all government policy since the early '90s, set it up to fail and then clutch their pearls while saying "see, government can't do anything right"

from pj o'rourke:

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.
 

jthomas666

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

One thing they didn't fix with this bill for some reason is it still allows you to buy insurance after you become sick.
Sure, but will you be able to afford it? This move lets them claim that everyone will have "access" to healthcare.

ETA: Based on the cuts to Medicare, Planned Parenthood, and the like, it's safe to say that the secret committee that drafted this bill is the Death Panel the GOP has been warning us about.
 
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Intl.Aperture

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

imho, that has been the gop approach to pretty much all government policy since the early '90s, set it up to fail and then clutch their pearls while saying "see, government can't do anything right"

from pj o'rourke:
Yah the Republicans have been obstructionist since the early 90's. Now with complete power they look horribly out of sorts. It's really disappointing to watch. I'd actually have more respect if they just did what they ultimately wanted to do and allowed themselves to take the heat in the meantime. They contort themselves into ethical pretzels to look blameless when, if they implemented what the crux of their beliefs were and they actually worked, they could end up being venerated. Instead they are just using their power to do very little new work and try to prove that their methodology is correct but instead continue to try and debase and discredit the methodology of their opponents. Just focus on implementing conservative systems and block out the noise of twitter and the media. They're going to get hate no matter what so they might as well push forward with their base agenda since the American public saw fit to vote them in to office.
 

Bodhisattva

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

I never said it was the norm,
First, I appreciate your experience in this area. I'd like to think we both want the same thing: healthy citizens who don't have to go broke trying to get needed health care. Where we obviously differ is the path to get there. I appreciate your acknowledgement that the perpetually sick is not the norm. To me, it then follows that we shouldn’t condemn everyone into participating in government plan, which you also know is billions of dollars worth of waste.

but expensive medical bills are not nearly as rare as you seem to be suggesting. The hospital system where I work is about 1,000 beds, and we're near or at capacity every day. Just looking at the list of problems our patients have, the surgeries they've undergone, and the drugs or long-term care they require, I'd (conservatively) wager that at least 700 wouldn't be able to afford medical care on the kind of savings account system you suggest. And that's just our patient load on any given day. Granted, I do work at a tertiary care hospital, but there are hundreds of other centers that could make similar claims. What is your solution for these people? Just let them choose death or bankruptcy? Ignoring questions of morality, even that doesn't sidestep the cost--we'll still be paying for their medical bills when they show up nearly dead at the ED and EMTALA compels treatment. It's just not a realistic option, IMO.
I’m not suggesting the cost is inexpensive in these rare cases. But, part of the reason for high costs are that you pay not just for yourself but for others as well. And you pay for the cost of government. That can be greatly reduced. My preference for minimizing the government role, aside from minimizing the waste, is that it allows people to keep the money they otherwise flush with every paycheck and invest it. With some of that money they could get insurance for catastrophic events or end of life care. So, my plan would reduce costs on the front end (reduce government lunacy) and back end (allow people to have their investments and insurance cover this). ….. More on this subject later.

To analogize with car insurance, I have minimal insurance - coverage for the other guy’s car if I cause a wreck (i.e. the catastrophic event). I divert what I would have flushed in paying full coverage to investments that cover my car expenses (including purchase of the next car). I don’t want insurance (if it really existed) for oil changes and tire rotations. Even though that’s the only sure expense, it’s not necessary to have insurance on that. I can pay the $50-$100 a few times a year. If I had insurance it would be a lot more expensive. If we had Obamacarcare, because many people are subsidized, my car insurance would be ridiculously expensive compared to what I’d get for it. (The analogy is that we shouldn’t have health care insurance for the basic stuff; it’s unnecessary).

The cost of government is glossed over by those who advocate it. Bureaucratic salaries are in the billions before you even get to fraud and the cost of bad government decisions. You offered a hospital example; I’ll revisit a couple I’ve discussed before. When my wife worked in labor and delivery, the hospital delivered around 12,000 babies/year. (It is one of the busiest L/D units in the country.) About 2/3 of the patients are on the dole. (Nationwide I believe the number is 50%.) IIRC, the cost of the delivery is $10k. So, that’s $80,000,000 charged to the taxpayer ….. from one unit of one hospital. Extrapolate nationwide … There were nearly 4M births in 2016. If the cost of half of those deliveries are charged to the taxpayer …… Uggh! It is ridiculous that productive people to pay for people who have no business having children ….. who will then just get on the dole themselves. Dumb government policy. How do you stop this waste? The government won’t; government creates it.

Another related example are unnecessary ambulance trips that these mothers-to-be take and bill to the taxpayer. I saw this myself many, many times when I’d arrive at the hospital early to pick up my wife. I’d see an ambulance leisurely pull up to the hospital with the pregnant women. A caravan of cars (family members) would follow behind the ambulance. This is not an emergency; this is a joy ride. Cost to the taxpayers: $500 (at that time) per trip. At least half the patients on the dole (4000) would do this. That’s $2,000,000 charged to the taxpayer ….. from one unit of one hospital. How do you stop that waste? The government won’t; government creates it.

Now, back to dealing with people who have high costs. My Mom is in her 70s and she’s starting to develop health problems. It’s possible, when she can no longer be active, that she will be sick for a long time. Financially she’s covered. As I think most know, my Mom and I have invested in real estate for years. All the properties have long since been paid off and provide several hundred thousand dollars of income. I don’t touch that investment. That’s for my Mom; it’s her income. That investment covers all her expenses (no home or car mortgage, care for all her rescue animals, vacations, etc.) and will cover her medical care needs (if she needs it). No government waste is necessary.

There’s no reason the above shouldn’t be the standard. I didn’t come from money. Quite the contrary; I’ve discussed how poor my early years were. Yet, I now have buckets (investment accounts/property) of income that cover health care, cars, more investments, vacations, my daughter’s college fund, etc. That should be the goal, not government programs that cause massive problems.
 

chanson78

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

In a perfect world, I would agree that that is how it should work. However, in the real world, there are many people who are too irresponsible to look out for their own financial security, much less plan for catastrophic events. There is no incentive to plan for it and unless you are advocating for hospitals to quit treating people who cannot take care of the financial responsibility, the perfect world scenario is at best a pipe dream.
 
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Bodhisattva

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

In a perfect world, I would agree that that is how it should work. However, in the real world, there are many people who are too irresponsible to look out for their own financial security, much less plan for catastrophic events. There is no incentive to plan for it and unless you are advocating for hospitals to quit treating people who cannot take care of the financial responsibility, the perfect world scenario is at best a pipe dream.
The world doesn't have to be perfect for this to be the standard. Far from it. The fact that this is what I have done in an imperfect world (while having a good deal of my income siphoned off by the government) proves that. I'm nothing special. I just knew at an early age I didn't want to be poor. I went from collecting comic books as a kid to turning that interest into collecting real estate and equities. My wife and I drive cars that were paid off 11 and 13 years ago (which has allowed the aforementioned car fund to grow huge). We don't squander money; we invest. Anyone can do it. We don't have to have a system of mutual theft. We don't have to have a system where billions of dollars is wasted and government drones are making decisions that affect people's health and financial security. Government should not be the first resort. It should be the last resort. In fact, it should be three paces past last resort.
 

chanson78

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

The world doesn't have to be perfect for this to be the standard. Far from it. The fact that this is what I have done in an imperfect world (while having a good deal of my income siphoned off by the government) proves that. I'm nothing special. I just knew at an early age I didn't want to be poor. I went from collecting comic books as a kid to turning that interest into collecting real estate and equities. My wife and I drive cars that were paid off 11 and 13 years ago (which has allowed the aforementioned car fund to grow huge). We don't squander money; we invest. Anyone can do it. We don't have to have a system of mutual theft. We don't have to have a system where billions of dollars is wasted and government drones are making decisions that affect people's health and financial security. Government should not be the first resort. It should be the last resort. In fact, it should be three paces past last resort.
Again, you seem to think that I am disagreeing with you regarding this being the ideal. However, I would say that the very fact that we are still talking about it has proven that while your instances are economically possible, they aren't sociologically realistic. I would say the 240 years of the American experiment has proven that while the opportunity may exist it isn't taken advantage of.

What you are describing is your wish for how society should work. That is about as productive as teaching abstinence as a means of birth control. Sounds good in principle, however the results are anything but desirable. This is another attempt to expect people to always work towards their best interest. I would say the last election has proven that most people in America don't do things that are in their best interest.

I'll leave you with a saying I heard many times growing up from my Mother. "You can wish in one hand, and **** in the other and you tell me which one will fill up first."
 

CharminTide

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

First, I appreciate your experience in this area. I'd like to think we both want the same thing: healthy citizens who don't have to go broke trying to get needed health care. Where we obviously differ is the path to get there. I appreciate your acknowledgement that the perpetually sick is not the norm. To me, it then follows that we shouldn’t condemn everyone into participating in government plan, which you also know is billions of dollars worth of waste.
Thank you for the thoughtful and in-depth response. I've never doubted that we shared the same ultimate goal; as usual, our differences lie in the how.

Again, I think this is an overly idealistic and entirely impractical view. You can't actually institute these kinds of policies based on utopian assumptions and expect a functional outcome. I didn't go into how I think your ideal vision conflicts with basic human nature, but I absolutely agree with chanson on that point.

I’m not suggesting the cost is inexpensive in these rare cases. But, part of the reason for high costs are that you pay not just for yourself but for others as well. And you pay for the cost of government. That can be greatly reduced. My preference for minimizing the government role, aside from minimizing the waste, is that it allows people to keep the money they otherwise flush with every paycheck and invest it.
My point was that expensive medical care is anything but rare. A C-section with a basic, uncomplicated birth costs around $50k. How many 25-year-olds saddled with college debt would have that kind of money saved up? Medical care is expensive. You can make the argument that it's too expensive and I certainly wouldn't disagree. But that's an entirely different conversation, and you can't simply ignore reality to justify an ideal.

Now, back to dealing with people who have high costs. My Mom is in her 70s and she’s starting to develop health problems. It’s possible, when she can no longer be active, that she will be sick for a long time. Financially she’s covered. As I think most know, my Mom and I have invested in real estate for years. All the properties have long since been paid off and provide several hundred thousand dollars of income. I don’t touch that investment. That’s for my Mom; it’s her income. That investment covers all her expenses (no home or car mortgage, care for all her rescue animals, vacations, etc.) and will cover her medical care needs (if she needs it). No government waste is necessary.

There’s no reason the above shouldn’t be the standard. I didn’t come from money. Quite the contrary; I’ve discussed how poor my early years were. Yet, I now have buckets (investment accounts/property) of income that cover health care, cars, more investments, vacations, my daughter’s college fund, etc. That should be the goal, not government programs that cause massive problems.
It's very fortunate that you two were able to save that kind of money for you mom's needs later in life, and I'm genuinely happy that was possible for you and your family. But I think it's a bit naïve to assume that over 300 million Americans will also be able to make a significant amount of money off real estate or other investments, to the point where they can comfortably retire and confidently tackle both expected and unexpected medical bills. It sounds like your mother has been relatively healthy over the past 70 years, which is fantastic. But what if she were like countless other mothers over 50, and required more than just routine or preventative care? That medical fund you've been saving, if it still existed, would be considerably smaller.

In insurance terms, your plan forces people into lifetime limits, defined primarily by their own income. And once that lifetime limit is hit, there's no recourse. As people learned in the pre-ACA days, a $1 million lifetime limit sounds very high, until you start to actually need it. Tying these limits to income would also turn healthcare delivery into even more of a class-based system than we have now.

I get that you want a system that promotes personal responsibility, and I'm not philosophically opposed to that. I get that you (as mentioned in a separate thread) don't want to be on the hook to cover what you consider to be others' poor choices, and I'm sympathetic to that. But IMO, you're extrapolating your own good fortune in terms of health issues onto the whole population in an unrealistic way, you're vastly underestimating the cost of healthcare in America today, and you're proposing a system that runs counter to basic human nature. It's a wonderful ideal, but completely impractical.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

I had to have a coronary bypass in February, 2016. The bill was a bit over $200K. Of course, Medicare didn't allow or pay that much, but that's the amount I would have been sued for, had I no insurance nor Medicare. That's not the real problem, though. The real problem is long term care, the majority of which is now paid for by Medicaid, which is the target of the present legislation. I'm handling the estate of a lady now who was declared incompetent in 2001. Fortunately, she was worth several million. However, she lived to be 101. Her care ran $180,000 per year. Self-insurance is a pie in the sky, with today's costs...
 

CrimsonRuss

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

I still think the best long term solution for those in this position is for hospitals to function more as commodities. The healthcare industry needs to have better profit incentive and freedom of labor. As it stands fewer Americans are becoming doctors (we could debate the reasons why) and there is overdemand stimulated by government driven health insurance coverage which leads to mass shortages. The result is an over-reliance on emergency care and those costs are distributed among government, hospitals, and insurance payers.

I confess that this is not an area of expertise for me. But I don't think we are allowing the free market to do enough in healthcare. Look, it was broken before ACA and I'd say it's stagnated now in that many more people have coverage but I also know many people who now cannot afford their premiums and have to downgrade their care or drop it altogether (not to mention some of my freelance friends who are getting dinged with the mandate, which you characterized as 'laughably weak', but is still hurting them in very tangible ways).

While I don't think the free market is a righteous force for good that, when unfettered, can only bring glory and cash to the most morally worthy, I DO think too little of it is allowed to work in the healthcare industry and I REALLY don't think more government intervention will help.
The only clear cut answer is Single payer, Medicare for all. Health care profit incentives are, IMO, a big part of the problem. You simply shouldn't be allowed to PROFIT off human pain. We are the richest country on earth an the fact that we're the only major country not to guarantee health care as a right is beyond deplorable...
 

Tide1986

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

The only clear cut answer is Single payer, Medicare for all. Health care profit incentives are, IMO, a big part of the problem. You simply shouldn't be allowed to PROFIT off human pain. We are the richest country on earth an the fact that we're the only major country not to guarantee health care as a right is beyond deplorable...
Well, I wonder why we're the richest country on earth and how long that will last if all of the socialists/communists get their way?
 

rgw

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Re: Senate Healthcare Bill Released

money is fake, power is real. america is worth at least 20 trillion in butt kickings if you bow up at us.
 

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